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Author Topic: Tier List: Card Draw  (Read 1039 times)

Morganator 2.0

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Tier List: Card Draw
« on: June 24, 2023, 12:00:46 am »
Okay I'm back. That was crazy. We all like drawing cards right? I don't have to describe why we like drawing cards? Okay good, let's get to the tier list. Almost done these.

As always, if you disagree with a placement or think something is missing, post a reply.

A Tier
Draw many cards across many turns

Mystic Remora, Rhystic Study, Sylvan Library

B Tier
Draw lots of cards in one shot.

Rishkar's Expertise, Wheel of Fortune, Windfall

C Tier
Draw approximately 1 card (or more) per turn

Beast Whisperer, Dark Confidant, Elemental Bond, Idol of Oblivion, Tenuous Truce

D Tier
Draw a few cards, one shot

Cut a Deal, Night's Whisper, Thrill of Possibility

E Tier
Small and/or unreliable card draw

Faithless Looting, Golden Ratio, Greater Good, Mentor of the Meek, Mind's Eye, Ponder



Other card draw and its placement

Necropotence: A
Esper Sentinel: B
Faerie Mastermind: B
Notion Thief: B
Skullclamp: B
Toski, Bearer of Secrets: B
Deathreap Ritual: C
Guardian Project: C
Phyrexian Arena: C
Commander's Sphere: E



Next tier list: tutors. The last one

WWolfe

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2023, 01:50:57 pm »
The only thing I might disagree with (and I'm not 100% sure I do) would be Esper Sentinel. I could see it being considered A. It's similar to Mystic Remora which is listed in A though Sentinel triggers at most once on each turn while Remora can trigger multiple times a turn whereas I don't feel it so much fits with Rishkar's Expertise or Windfall because they draw you multiple cards on one turn while being one-time effects.

I'm really torn on which is a better placement for Sentinel.
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Aetherium Slinky

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2023, 10:26:07 pm »
Wow, a lot to disagree with here.

B-tier: what is Rishkar's Expertise doing there? Conditional, expensive. Sure, it is almost mana neutral but still.

D-tier: Night's Whisper is definitely better than that. C-tier material, easily.

E-tier: Greater Good is about as restrictive as Rishkar's Expertise. It's cheaper to cast, repeatable, free to use. Ponder is better than that. Dig 3 or 4 gor just 1 mana??

How did you get Bob and Phyrexian Arena that high? They're at least a category worse than what you're suggesting.
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Morganator 2.0

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2023, 03:51:46 am »
The only thing I might disagree with (and I'm not 100% sure I do) would be Esper Sentinel. I could see it being considered A. It's similar to Mystic Remora which is listed in A though Sentinel triggers at most once on each turn while Remora can trigger multiple times a turn whereas I don't feel it so much fits with Rishkar's Expertise or Windfall because they draw you multiple cards on one turn while being one-time effects.

Esper Sentinel is one I went back and forth on. It is also low cost and can give many cards over many turns. The downsides are two-fold; it only triggers on the first non-creature, and it's not that big of a payment cost.

In order for you to get a lot of mileage out of Esper Sentinel you need to either be playing at a high-powered table where every bit of mana counts, or you need some way to boost it's power. As a result, I've found it much less useful in more casual circles, so I dropped it's ranking. I won't lie that with it's low cost and repeatability, there's a good argument for it being A-tier.

B-tier: what is Rishkar's Expertise doing there? Conditional, expensive. Sure, it is almost mana neutral but still.

It does have two strong conditions too it (6 mana, needs a high power creature) but if you can fill those conditions it's bonkers. Draws a lot of cards and you get something for free.

D-tier: Night's Whisper is definitely better than that. C-tier material, easily.
How did you get Bob and Phyrexian Arena that high? They're at least a category worse than what you're suggesting.

Makes sense. I was thinking of giving this list only 4 tiers because C and D are really close in terms of power.

E-tier: Greater Good is about as restrictive as Rishkar's Expertise. It's cheaper to cast, repeatable, free to use.

Greater Good's problem is that you need to have high-powered creatures you're willing to throw away. Short of having a commander like Ghired, Conclave Exile or Titania, Protector of Argoth, Greater Good is unreliable.

Ponder is better than that. Dig 3 or 4 gor just 1 mana??

It's definitely better than the other 5 examples, but I've used this and it's cousins more than a few times, and I've only ever liked them in a storm build. You get a little bit more value out of these cards that way. In all other cases, the card draw is minimal.

Landale

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2023, 05:34:46 am »
Greater Good's problem is that you need to have high-powered creatures you're willing to throw away. Short of having a commander like Ghired, Conclave Exile or Titania, Protector of Argoth, Greater Good is unreliable.
4/X or higher tokens aren't too hard to come by, or even just 3/3s to make it a big looting effect, especially in green. Even smaller creatures are perfectly fine in decks that just want to make use of hand 2 the graveyard.

hollaz90

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2023, 02:19:55 pm »
How would you rank "The one ring" ?

Aetherium Slinky

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2023, 02:30:35 pm »
How would you rank "The one ring" ?
Not OP but I'd say E. It's expensive, draws very little, you have to wait around, it hurts you. Think Phyrexian Arena but worse.
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hollaz90

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2023, 11:48:57 am »
How would you rank "The one ring" ?
Not OP but I'd say E. It's expensive, draws very little, you have to wait around, it hurts you. Think Phyrexian Arena but worse.

I think this card is an absolute beast - after for example turn 4 - you draw 4 cards with one tap effect.

Abramelin

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2023, 06:35:56 pm »
what do you guys think about gravestorm ? its one of my favs
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anjinsan

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2023, 08:26:33 pm »
Given how down everyone is on Phyrexian Arena these days, seeing it ranked higher than Night's Whisper seems a little odd, and the difference between D and B is also odd. Drawing "only" two cards is a very different prospect when you also only cost 2 mana, otherwise Breakthrough and Kozilek, Butcher of Truth would be top-tier.

Thrill of Possibility is great, but shouldn't really be considered in the same category as it's selection, not draw. Faithless Looting actually puts you down cards. Sometimes selection is as good as draw but often the distinction matters.

How would you rank "The one ring" ?
Not OP but I'd say E. It's expensive, draws very little, you have to wait around, it hurts you. Think Phyrexian Arena but worse.
The One Ring definitely outclasses Arena. By the time Arena draws you one card, TOR has drawn you three. Even if Arena comes down a turn earlier, because it costs less, it's two cards vs three two turns later. The fact that you're taking a four-mana turn off instead of a three-mana turn is more than outweighed by the far easier casting cost, too (if it even matters; often, even in quite casual games, you play a mana rock or other two-mana ramp on T2 then have four on T3 anyway - and with very low-powered decks you want T3 to play your 3-mana rocks!).

Oh also it gives you protection for a turn. If you play that turn 3, probably nobody cares, but it means that drawing this late it's less likely to be a dead card. Drawing Arena late feels really bad; this is a fancy fog that cantrips, which isn't good but could be good enough.

(And that's not counting your options with proliferate, untapped, bouncing, etc)

Landale

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2023, 09:06:55 pm »
Thrill of Possibility is great, but shouldn't really be considered in the same category as it's selection, not draw. Faithless Looting actually puts you down cards. Sometimes selection is as good as draw but often the distinction matters.
Drawing cards is drawing cards. You seem to be equating that concept to card advantage.

anjinsan

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Re: Tier List: Card Draw
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2023, 05:25:07 pm »
Drawing cards is drawing cards. You seem to be equating that concept to card advantage.
Yes, I am - because that’s what it is. Yes, technically thrill draws you cards, but it’s card-neutral. We wouldn’t consider, for example, an effect that said “draw ten cards, then discard those cards” - that’s mill 10, and unless you have some effect that cards about the fact of drawing, it’s nowhere near as good. Nobody’s saying that Bazaar of Baghdad is a good draw engine, nor is it really useful to include cantrips.

And, if you care about selection, then this list should look very different - cards like Anticipate and Demonic Tutor (which don’t actually draw) should be on there.

(A list of cards that literally just draw because you care about drawing specifically would be rather niche; most people aren’t looking to trigger their Ominous Seas but to gain card advantage)