Questions regarding suspension and more generally "casting" and triggers

[Gorebattechef]

Hi, I'm currently working on a commander deck featuring Gandalf of the secret fire and I have found myself having lots of questions concerning the suspension mechanism. I'm saying this to put some context so that when you, generous fellow, answer the following questions you may also add other details concerning tricky mechanisms that you believe I'll run into as what I'm truly looking for here are answers to help me understand the game better more than just a specific answer to a specific scenario.

My first question is about : Complete the circuit

I play this in a random opponent turn alongside another spell. I will get the copies of that other spell at that moment right ? But at my turn I won't because both spells will be casted at the same time and go on the stack. So even if I choose to have the complete the circuit trigger first when it does the other spell will already be casted so it won't be copied, right ?

My second question is about Insidious Will
I play it during an opponent turn to counter something. When i get to play it again during my turn, if it's the only spell coming out of exile I won't be able to cast it due to it having nothing to target right ?

My third question is about Snap :
I first play it during an opponent turn. When I cast it during my turn I would have to tap the lands when this is on the stack to benefit from the ability to untap them but that will force me to play an instant as I will only have access to that mana during the beginning of my turn and not during my precombat main phase right ?

Thank you for your time gentlemen (and ladies of course!)

[UrizenII]

In the case of Complete the Circuit, both it and the other spell (let's say Shock for simplicity's sake) you cast afterwards will get exiled at the same time and have the time counters put on them (obviously, the copies will not, since they are not actually cast).  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe technically this would resolve in the following way.

• On your upkeep, you have two triggers: remove a time counter from Complete the Circuit and remove a time counter from Shock.  Both go on the stack at the same time, so you choose the order in which they go on the stack (and consequently the order in which they resolve).
• You choose to put suspended Shock's upkeep trigger on the stack first so that it resolves last, then the trigger for CtC.
• Time counter is removed from CtC, so it is cast at that time - with the Shock trigger still on the stack.
• CtC cast goes on top of the stack and will resolve first.
• CtC resolves.
• Stack moves to removing the time counter from Shock.
• Counter is removed, Shock cast trigger put on stack.
• Shock resolves, then is copied twice because you previously resolved CtC this turn.

For Insidious Will, or any other spell that refers to "target spell" for that matter, you are correct: if there is no other spell on the stack that is a legal target, you cannot cast it.  The time counter would be removed, but the spell would stay exiled because it was not cast (the suspend rules specifically say "if able" in reference to casting the spell without paying its cost when the last counter is removed).

For Snap, you are also correct.  In order to get the benefit of untapping the lands as the spell resolves, you would have to float mana (i.e. tap the lands) in response to the spell being cast.  However, because this is occurring during your upkeep and you lose all unspent mana in your pool as you move through turn phases, unless you have something else on which to spend that mana or an effect like Horizon Stone, you really don't gain anything by doing so.

As far as other "tricky mechanisms" are concerned, I believe you already asked about the Splice mechanic in a different thread.  In general, stack manipulation is the tricky mechanic.  I typically shy away from spell-slinging decks like this just because they do get confusing to resolve properly sometimes.

[Gorebattechef]

Massive thanks friend. I'm glad to see I'm getting better. What confused me for Complete the Circuit was the word "cast" that made me believe that Complete the circuit had to be resolved BEFORE I play the second spell as if it was on the stack already it wouldn't work. But i guess it doesn't work like this han. Anyway thanks a lot, I've always had lots of questions concerning the game but I never actually asked in a forum. I'm definitely going to do it more often haha

Thanks again

[UrizenII]

What confused me for Complete the Circuit was the word "cast" that made me believe that Complete the circuit had to be resolved BEFORE I play the second spell as if it was on the stack already it wouldn't work.

You're right.  It does have to resolve before you cast the second spell; if you were to cast CtC and then the second spell in response to it or something else before CtC resolved, you wouldn't get the copies of the second spell.  CtC being an Instant is a little counter-intuitive for this reason; if you cast it on someone else's turn, you have to wait for the stack to resolve, priority to pass back to the player whose turn it is, and then for them to take another game action to which you can respond to in order to get the benefit of CtC.

The reason it works with the Suspend mechanic off Gandalf's trigger to copy the second spell is because, even though both go to zero time counters on the same upkeep step, you're not actually casting the second spell until CtC has resolved because the cast triggers themselves do not go on the stack at the same time as I outlined in the previous post (I edited step 8 for clarification; previously, it read "you previously cast CtC this turn," but it should have read "you previously resolved CtC this turn).

Fully understanding triggers and stack manipulation/resolution is probably one of the most complicated parts of Magic.  So far, it seems like your intuition about it has been correct, it's just understanding the nuances of the stack order that you weren't 100% sure about.  There are a lot of weird combos that work specifically because of things like that.

[Gorebattechef]

Thanks a lot for the details, it raises one larger question for which im not positive and that may induce a lot of approximations in my resoning :

When we resolve the stack, we resolve the last thing that was put on it, but then do we get to play other thing before the 2nd last thing resolves ? Or do we just sit and wait until the stack resolves unless there is a trigger ability that triggers and allows us to play things again ?

And back to the example i understood what happened better reading your first corrected answer again (which is the reason Im correcting my question haha).

But Im a bit confused about the suspension counters.

For me you would typically remove the 2 counters at the same time, causing both spells to go on the stack at the same time. There you would choose which one goes first but before any of them resolved the other would be right behind, ready to be resolved aswell.

So basically everything strikes me as being logic aside from the CtC resolving while the suspension counter is still on the Shock. If you could get this mess in ordre in my head that would be absolutely fantastic (and if you dont have time for it, its fine  )

Édit : just realized that in your example the counter is going on the stack, its just that in my head removing suspension counters had to be some kind of special action or state-based-action but it appears its just a normal thing ? I feel smarter and yet more lost than before lol

Thanks again for your time this is tremendously helpful

[Landale]

Thanks a lot for the details, it raises one larger question for which im not positive and that may induce a lot of approximations in my resoning :

When we resolve the stack, we resolve the last thing that was put on it, but then do we get to play other thing before the 2nd last thing resolves ? Or do we just sit and wait until the stack resolves unless there is a trigger ability that triggers and allows us to play things again ?

In order for something to resolve all players must pass without adding anything additional to the stack.
"405.5. When all players pass in succession, the top (last-added) spell or ability on the stack resolves. If the stack is empty when all players pass, the current step or phase ends and the next begins."
"608.1. Each time all players pass in succession, the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves."
"117.4. If all players pass in succession (that is, if all players pass without taking any actions in between passing), the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves or, if the stack is empty, the phase or step ends."

So, if for example, Player 1 casts Wrath of God and passes priority, you (Player 2) pass because while you don't want it to go off but are pretty sure Player 3 will counter it because they have the mana open to do so and would be even worse off than you, Player 3 does exactly what you expect and casts Counterspell, Player 4 is fine with this and passes, Player 1 responds to the Counterspell with Dovin's Veto, Players 2-4 all pass and it resolves countering Counterspell and now Wrath of God is up for resolution again, but these things must be decided on again because it still hasn't had everyone pass in succession, so now that Player 3 has failed to stop the Wrath you could toss out a Tibalt's Trickery in response to the Wrath despite passing the last time it was at the top of the stack waiting to resolve.

Since CtC needs to be resolved first, if you can it means you can play something first then cast CtC on the same stack no ? Because it feels to me that it is the same mechanism you described when you talked about suspension triggers and stack.

Casting anything before CtC will not allow it to be copied by CtC, as it has already been cast. The only reason it works with this double suspend scenario is that other spell doesn't actually get cast until after CtC.

[UrizenII]

But Im a bit confused about the suspension counters.

For me you would typically remove the 2 counters at the same time, causing both spells to go on the stack at the same time. There you would choose which one goes first but before any of them resolved the other would be right behind, ready to be resolved aswell.
...
Édit : just realized that in your example the counter is going on the stack, its just that in my head removing suspension counters had to be some kind of special action or state-based-action but it appears its just a normal thing ? I feel smarter and yet more lost than before lol

Removing the time counters is a triggered ability.  Triggered abilities usually start with words like when, whenever, at, etc., always have some sort of operative phrase followed by a comma giving some criterion that must be met before the ability triggers (e.g. "at the beginning of your upkeep," "whenever you draw a card," etc.), and then what the ability actually does.  Static abilities are continuous/permanent effects.  Flying or "Green creatures you control get +1/+1" are static abilities.  State-based actions are things that happen whenever certain conditions are met as a result of the rules of the game.  For example, a player losing the game because his life total reaches zero is a state-based action.

Since you have two spells that are suspended, there are two separate "At the beginning of your upkeep" triggers.  They both trigger at the same time.  Because you control both triggers, you decide which order they go on the stack, and because they are separate triggers, they resolve at different times.  As they resolve, cast triggers get put on the stack.  In reality then, the time counters are not removed at the same time even though the trigger to remove them does.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

[Gorebattechef]

Yeah it's getting clearer and clearer thank you for the answers guys it really helped a ton ! Have a nice evening and see you later for another question  !

[stuffnsuch]

Suspend is only as complicated as any other time you have multiple triggers that trigger on the same time.  The important thing to remember is that triggered abilities (like "at the beginning of your upkeep remove a time counter from this card") don't just happen automatically.  You decide what order they happen and can respond to them, and respond between triggers as well.  For your specific questions:

1. As long as you resolve the trigger to remove the last time counter from Complete the Circuit first, you'll then get a trigger to cast it.  Complete the Circuit gets cast before you've even resolved the trigger to remove the counter from the other spell, so, when you resolve that trigger, you'll get a trigger to cast that spell, and can cast it, which will put the delayed trigger from Complete the Circuit on the stack allowing you to copy it.  That whole interaction involves 5 separate triggers, so don't feel bad about being confused.  I'm a little confused myself.

2. You can't cast a spell without legal targets, so Insidious Will will remain exiled for the rest of the game.  I spent a while trying to puzzle over a way you could get another spell on the stack while the "you may cast Insidious Will without paying it's mana cost" trigger was on the stack, but they'll always resolve first.  You can't respond to a trigger going onto the stack before it hits the stack, so counterspells just don't work ever with suspend, as far as I can tell.

3. Technically, Snap can be taken advantage of with instants, of course, and with abilities, and with the few effects that cause mana to stop emptying from mana pools, and even with cards that care about tapping and untapping, but, yes, in the vast majority of cases, Snap's untap up to two lands clause is pretty useless off suspend.