Standard - Red Simic Deck

[Terazul]

WWolfe, "doesn't click constructed" is extreamly vague.

i understand that people are entiltled to their opinions and without them this forum would be completely pointless but i never understood the reason of disregarding someone elses point for your own. i believe that leads to nowhere spirals. So i simply ask that we work towards the goal, not away from it.

In that spirit, Thank You WWolfe. Much luck in your endevors as well.



I am looking forward to using simic manipulator. i feel like taking out the cyclonic rift for them ( control for control), i'm still a little worried about how fragile he'll be but i guess thats what play testing is for!

[Perishedluck]

WWolfe had the same thoughts I did. On how you are being a little scattered with the idea of this deck. You are being a little rude to the both of us, and when you say work towards the goal, everyone has different ideas about it.

Like for me, I think wolf made a good point about how not many of your creatures trigger each other. if you maybe added a 2 or 3 drop that had a lot of power or toughness you might get towards a greater goal. rakdos cackler might be a good 1 drop because you can power him up with unleash. Maybe looking towards a few other unleash cards would be strong?

I was looking since you are fixed on using green for the sole purpose of accelerating your deck, you could try satyr hedonist as well as your Sylvan Caryatid.

It doesn't look like you have much red either, and since you could use red devotion, maybe adding in a few more red cards would be good? if you aren't trying to make purphoros a creature just let us know.

[Terazul]

Yes everyone does have different ideas, which i can thrive on. what does bother me is comments that admit no understanding while suggesting complete change. So yes i hope i came off more than a little rude as i try to see decks for what they were made to do and help build upon that, not tear it down.

I see this growing into a big flame-off and i actually would like to get more input on this deck, so i apologize to both of you for my rudeness. As right as i believe myself to be, i can't expect to participate in a community without being able to take all forms of critisims. I'm Sorry.

PerishedLuck, I believe that the purest form of my deck is purphoros, god of the forge + creatures. In that, i'm not really trying to push red devotion to swing with him, mostly im trying to stay alive until i can drop him and continue to play creatures until i can win.

i absolutley love the potential of master of waves when i have purphoros, god of the forge out. so i am trying to push Blue devotion, though not into the mono colored levels.

while green is my accelerator/mana fixer, i do use experiment one, sylvan caryatid, master biomancer, fathom mage, and prophet of kruphix as i believe they are good creatures in their own right and/or they synergize well with other creature drops.

Now to try to get to the confusion of the matter:

the evolve creatures synergize well with other creatures, im not trying to stack counts as much as gain growing utility out of my creatures. so while 8 of my evolve creatures dont trigger each other, there are 20 others that do have that potential. Master biomancer also gives every creature the opportunity to trigger evolve. i feel that the deck's mechanics do work together and aren't as scattered as you think. now whether they work the best together is another thing...... i would like the deck to work everytime but at the moment i get a lot of dead draws and accelerations into no threat hands.

I am open to ideas and will do my best to consider everyones thoughts as best as i can, my only request is that you please back up your statements as best as you can.


P.S. i have considered satyr hedonist but i felt he was a bit too aggressive for the deck. I think the same of Rakdos Cackler, the unleash is for aggresion. I don't believe that the deck is very aggresive in the early game.

[WWolfe]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with what I meant, if that was the case then I apologize.

The point I was attempting to make was that if someone has an answer for the Purphoros-Master of Waves combo (such as countering Master of Waves or exiling Purphoros or even using a Pithing Needle which most decks have sideboarded at FNM and other events), you have no other win condition as your evolve creatures for the most part won't trigger each other and will remain small enough to fall victim to pretty much all the effective removal seeing significant play in standard right now.

Maybe look at including some creatures that would trigger them. The better decks that utilize evolve that I've seen almost all find ways to evolve each turn regardless of the draw.

[Terazul]

Agreed, Purphoros, god of the forge is the lynch pin in this plan. which is why i am trying to have a deck that can be a threat without him, albeit a slower pace.

I also realize that i am not evolving to the full potential, but having all creatures has pushed me to sacrifice efficiency for utility. The way i see it the only cards i am pretty unsure about is fathom mage and prophet of kruphix.  At each other slot i believe im running the best i can:

experiment one and cloudfin raptor are the best one-drops in my colors.

frostburn weird and sylvan caryatid are great 3 drops for defense and helping the rest of the deck out.

the 4-slot is definitely cramped with master of waves, purphoros, god of the forge, and master biomancer.

I believe the fathom mage can fuel my hand as a creature and prophet of kruphix can increase my efficiency with all drops but so far im not very convinced in trails.

i tried other draws such steam augury, urban evolution, and opportunity but it didn't really pan out too well. i believe it was the loss of tempo so i turned into an all creature strategy.


btw. pithing needle can only stop me from pumping with purphoros, god of the forge right?

[WWolfe]

Correct, Pithing needle would only stop you from pumping the tokens (or your other creatures) with Purphoros. It would have no effect on Purphoros dealing damage as it's a triggered ability (Pithing needle only "blocks" activated abilities).

Sorry I wasn't clearer on that part. I was mentioning that in case that was part of one of your other win conditions.

[Terazul]

Pumping with purphoros is a definite way to win, which is why i currently have cyclonic rift mainboard. i overload then untap and alpha swing.

[mattbl]

I forgot to mention, Blustersquall is a nice, cheap (both mana-wise and real money-wise) alternative to Cyclonic Rift. By the time you really want to play the card, you'll likely have enough mana for either, but Blustersquall gives you some earlier utility if you need some defense or happen to get the right combo of creatures faster than when you have 7 mana.

[Terazul]

I like it! blustersquall can really get some damage through if i do it right.

I've also been thinking about possibly filling the 3 slot. I cut it completley since droping sylvan caryatid jumps past it but feel there might be some useful 3-drops that could really help. i gotta look into it....

[WWolfe]

If you're looking for 3 drops, maybe consider Thassa. If she hits as a creature, she'll trigger your evolve creatures. And either way she'll allow you to scry one before drawing on your upkeep and give you the ability to make a creature unblockable each turn.

[Terazul]

The deck originally included thassa, god of the sea but i ended up cutting her because i felt i needed better card draw instead of better card quality. i am defintly reconsidering her. i am still intrigued with simic manipulator though, does anyone have some serious experience using him or does it just fall flat? i unfortunatley havent had the opportunity to test him yet. i am also very interested in give // take.

Lastly i am a control player at heart, making this deck has been difficult for me as i am very tempted to throw alot of control. i was considering judge's familiar as i thought he played like a force spike but was sadly mistaken.... In any case, dissolve was also in my head along with counterflux and cyclonic rift.

[WWolfe]

I think the issue you'll run into with Simic Manipulator is that this deck as constructed won't evolve him past 2-3 counters very often which will mean you can only use his ability to take control of a creature with 2 or 3 power. That may be helpful though if there's a creature with death touch or first strike your opponent controls with 2 or 3 power that you're having a hard time getting past for some reason...OR if there's a creature your opponent controls that would help boost your devotion (Nightveil Specter for instance) for when you drop Master of Waves. Definitely something I'd be curious to hear how it works out for you in play-testing.

I'm primarily a control-burn player now (started out more in line with Golgari & Rakdos style play but have really jumped to control-burn in the past few months) so I totally get where you're coming from.

[Terazul]

So I was play/testing yesterday and came to a horrible revelation:
Purphoros, God of the forge is a dead play!!! No matter when I play him, he doesn't change my board position. He adds no power to the field and can't defend ( because I don't push his devotion at all) he makes every other creature deal damage but that doesn't change the creature's board value. As I continued this thought process, more cards kept appearing that do the same thing!
Master Biomancer affects the board for everything after him!
fathom mage same thing
Experiment one never gets to 2 counters so I can never regen him.

that's a total of 16 cards that are dead in play......

I am reeling from this epic fail and am trying to find a good fix that doesn't rip this deck apart!!

[WWolfe]

I was thinking about this deck the other day when someone at my local shop was trying out a similar concept, the biggest issue they had was lack of removal and dead draws. The bigger issue being dead draws. I wish I could remember their exact decklist to see how similar it was to yours.

What part of the deck are you happy with? Maybe we can find ways to build onto that that you'll like.

[BloodxHunter]

I just suggested this to someone else, but if imediate effect with an intimidating body is what you want then Gruul Ragebeast might work, it will evolve your cards and you could get extra simicy by bouncing it back so your evolve cards improve and your opponents creatures fight a 6/6 every turn, unless your hand is strong enough to take full advantage of it's effect. If it's too expensive perhaps a Nulltread?