cEDH ban speculations

[Red_Wyrm]

I know that was the point of your quote, I'm saying that isn't true

So you do not think there will ever be a card printed that enables a deck more powerful than the top tier flash hulk deck?

[Soren841]

I didn't say anything about the future. I'm saying if Flash were banned RIGHT NOW, there would not be another deck that dominates the format. Especially if they unban Paradox Engine.

[Red_Wyrm]

But the point is that it sets a precedent for the future. For the next time this happens, and it will happen.

[WizardSpartan]

Edit: @Soren841: The reason everybody is going crazy is because of Thassa's Oracle. Flash Hulk was top tier, but fishy pushed it to another level. What Red_Wyrm is trying to say is that Wizards will print another "OP" card that restarts the entire process again.

It sounds like you're saying the only reason people asked for Flash to be banned was because of Thassa's Oracle which is far from the case. People have been moaning about it since Protean Hulk was unbanned.

I think I have been misunderstood. I am aware that there were calls for bans before Thassa's Oracle, but before, similar piles used Lab Man, which required another card to draw the card to win. Admittedly, I wasn't paying much attention to cEDH before this whole debacle, but I thought that, while obviously top tier and a bit much, Flash Hulk didn't have as many calls for bans as it does now.

Soren, we're talking about the future, like Red_Wyrm said. If they ban Flash, they open another can of worms for any future similar problems. Nobody is disputing that banning Flash right now fixes almost all current problems cEDH has.

[Soren841]

If another card does eventually become as format warping as Flash then it should absolutely be banned. And you're correct, piles similar to Oracle used lab man and were worse. But those aren't the best Hulk piles either, it just made a new pile that was the most OP to date. That doesn't mean Flash Hulk as a whole hasn't been dominating the format for a year or more

[Morganator 2.0]

And Flash Hulk has been dominating the format ever since Protean Hulk got unbanned.

The slippery slope arguments from the Rules Committee and Commander Advisory Group are getting a little annoying. Of course something could happen in the future, but what could happen isn't an excuse for innaction. Flash is a problem, that needs to be delt with. And if it sets precedent for another equally oppressive card in the future to be banned, I'm all for it.

The only thing that worries me is that Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle is almost as strong as Flash + Protean Hulk. Sure you can't win at instant speed, but it is still a low mana combo that only needs 2 cards and can only be answered with a counterspell. I think that Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact also need to be banned, and if it's not done at the same time as Flash, then all the slippery slope arguments will end up being correct.

[Soren841]

I would rather the slippery slope be correct than ban cards needlessly. The problem with Consultation + Oracle is they both need to be cast and your library is empty or mostly empty while you're doing it. It's way less safe and far slower

[robort]

So let me get this straight. If it isn't a player who plays cedh and says " this is stale and no fun whatsoever" because of X deck or X combo or X card is being played. What are they always told? hmmmm... find a playgroup that doesn't have X deck or X combo or X card isn't played. Form your own group and make your own rules to stick by.

Yet seems odd that with someone says "At any rate, these FishHulk decks are going to make the format stale and no fun whatsoever" you don't get the same responses and answers for the player who says "this is stale and fun whatsoever".

I am sure the same reasoning is supposed to apply across the entire spectrum of commander. There is supposed to be sympathy/empathy because there wasn't a ban but that same empathy/sympathy is never shown on the other ends of the spectrum.

[Morganator 2.0]

Not true at all. Paradox Engine got banned.

[robort]

I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??

Now we take the responses/answers people tell player A and Player B and apply it to the issue at hand of flash/hulk "this is stale and no fun whatsoever".

Those same responses/answers shouldn't be changed just because Player A and Player B are now into Cedh.

[Morganator 2.0]

I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??

The normal thing to do is tell Player C to stop pub-stomping the other two people. The issue isn't the deck, but the player piloting it. Whereas Flash+Hulk is an issue with the deck and it's nigh invulnerability to interaction.

[robort]

I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??

The normal thing to do is tell Player C to stop pub-stomping the other two people. The issue isn't the deck, but the player piloting it. Whereas Flash+Hulk is an issue with the deck and it's nigh invulnerability to interaction.

Exactly! Stop pub stomping other people using flash hulk.

[Red_Wyrm]

I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??

The normal thing to do is tell Player C to stop pub-stomping the other two people. The issue isn't the deck, but the player piloting it. Whereas Flash+Hulk is an issue with the deck and it's nigh invulnerability to interaction.

Exactly! Stop pub stomping other people using flash hulk.

Your argument is that the cEDH meta should self govern itself? Kind of like how casual EDH doesnt run land destruction, despite it being perfectly legal?

[Aetherium Slinky]

I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??

The normal thing to do is tell Player C to stop pub-stomping the other two people. The issue isn't the deck, but the player piloting it. Whereas Flash+Hulk is an issue with the deck and it's nigh invulnerability to interaction.

Exactly! Stop pub stomping other people using flash hulk.

Your argument is that the cEDH meta shlukd self govern itself? Kind of like how casual EDH doesnt run land destruction, despite it being perfectly legal?

Well... IF EDH and cEDH are the same format with the same rules then yes, it should. Unless, of course, MLD, infinites and "casual" are not a consideration when building a perfectly legal EDH deck and pub stomping is just a matter of "git gud". It's a powerful argument.

Truth is Flash needs to go. It's oppressive, makes things stale but most importantly it seems to divide people into EDH and cEDH camps as if they were two different formats with two different sets of rules. That is not acceptable.

[Soren841]

Flash + Hulk isn't fucking pubstomping if you're playing cEDH. It's just so much stronger than every other strategy that it's dominating the meta.. clearly you don't even know what pubstomping is??