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Autor Thema: Which decks use Cultivate?  (Gelesen 2625 mal)

Morganator 2.0

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Which decks use Cultivate?
« am: August 13, 2020, 05:37:03 Nachmittag »
Every time I build a casual commander deck, my first draft almost always contains Cultivate and/or it's counterpart Kodama's Reach. This card is a commander staple sitting at over 100 000 decks on EDHREC, and it's a budget card most of the time. And yet, every time I try putting it in a green deck, I always end up swapping it out for an Elvish Mystic, or a Talisman, or Chromatic Lantern, or just some other ramp card.

3-mana ramp isn't always bad, and this one also guarantees your next land drop. But it just always feels like lackluster ramp. I'm about to remove it from Haldan+Pako, even though that is a deck that wants to cast big spells and lots of spells, so Cultivate should be a good fit. Is Cultivate just overrated? What decks have you had where Cultivate worked better than the other options out there?

MonteTribal

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #1 am: August 13, 2020, 05:44:53 Nachmittag »
Decks that care about lands love it. It is basically "Green divination but just for drawing basics. You can put a basic land from your hand into the battlefield tapped".

It's a fine card, but there are certainly better options. I think it is for 3+ color decks mostly.

ezqimo

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #2 am: August 13, 2020, 06:02:54 Nachmittag »
I agree, mostly 2+ colors as Magic origins had a nice one for just forests

CleanBelwas

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #3 am: August 13, 2020, 06:10:58 Nachmittag »
It ramps and fixes for people who don't want to spend loads of money on their decks and most people who have been playing for anything more than a short time probably own a copy or two, so I can see why it's popular.

Casual, low budget commander is incredibly popular (most likely the most popular way to play the format) and it does some good work there so the numbers on EDHrec aren't surprising really.

To compare it to your other 3 examples:

Elvish Mystic is weirdly quite difficult to get hold of. Llanowar elves are 10 a penny, but Elvish Mystic is out of stock in a lot of places and online retailers, at least where I am in the world (and maybe other places too). In fact, a lot of 1 mana dorks seem to have strange stocking issues from time to time in my experience.

Talimans are kind of the same. People know how good they are so they don't stay in stock for long and don't get reprinted a whole bunch. The prices on some of them are creeping up too.

Chromatic Lantern's price just doesn't stay down. It dipped a little with its recent reprint but is creeping back up again as stock diminishes. Still not crazy expensive, but creeping up.

Cultivate is likely being bolstered by the pre-con effect too. It's printed in those all the time and so people have copies readily available in their collections. When they're looking to upgrade, most people tend to start with big flashy spells and cool creatures rather than mana bases because they're the more fun cards to buy and they have things like Cultivate already which do a perfectly acceptable job. If everyone at the table's mana base runs at the same speed and everyone is just looking to have some casual fun with their friends, there is no real reason to upgrade it.

robort

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #4 am: August 13, 2020, 06:13:37 Nachmittag »
It is sorcery speed but the implications is mainly casual play. The simpliest idea is that you are on turn 4 or don't have any more lands in your hand. It gets a land into the battlefield and another into your hand so you stay on curve while chugging along. Just having lands to be able to cast stuff no matter what stuff that is.
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ArmchairRuler

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #5 am: August 13, 2020, 06:19:27 Nachmittag »
I Use it in my Lord Windgrace Landfall Deck. Getting another two landfall triggers is great in Landfall decks in general, and as a bonus it keeps you from missing a land drop which always feels bad.

Xaarvaxus

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #6 am: August 14, 2020, 12:11:14 Vormittag »
I guess it depends what you see yourself ramping into.  You're typically trying to get to 5 mana [or more] asap if you're looking at running Cultivate or Kodama's Reach.

Out of curiosity, I checked which decks I'm currently using Cultivate in:

Sliver Overlord but its more for fixing than ramping.  If I ever get around to buying a Cryptolith Rite, it will get swapped out.  Seeing this in my opening hand is a meh to good depending on what lands I'm seeing.  I think the Rite would be good to very good to see.

Xenagos, God of Revels which has a lot of high CMC fatties so is key to the strategy of the deck plus wants Xenagos out early.  From playing the deck, Cultivate has worked very well at helping execute the game plan.  I want to see this in my opening hand.

Ghired, Conclave Exile, expressly to ramp into my commander asap, has been a good fit so far.  I like seeing this in my opening hand.

Thantis, the Warweaver, part ramp, part fixing though I'm likely to slow-roll Thantis so maybe this could get swapped out for something different.  The extra land in hand has worked well to toss to Lord Windgrace though.  Ok with seeing this in my opening hand.

Haldan, Avid Arcanist // Pako, Arcane Retriever - still under construction, not sure if Cultivate stays or not yet.  I suppose it will depend on how quickly Pako needs to hit the board.  Seems like I'd be okay seeing this in my opening hand.

*Arahbo, Roar of the World - technically it's only Kodama's Reach here but same idea.  This is a deck that I'm content letting suck so haven't paid much attention to balance of ramp, et al.  However, this is a commander that doesn't ever need to hit the board so I'm probably not racing to ramp into him and the rest of the deck is fairly low CMC so this should probably be Farseek, Rampant Growth, etc.  Meh on seeing this in opening hand.

Ezuri, Claw of Progess, Cultivate and Kodama's Reach came with the C15 [?] deck and I haven't swapped out the ramp package on this.  If this were someone else's deck that they were having me look at, I'd recommend swapping both out for 2 mana ramp.   My own strong recommendation, however, cannot compete with my laziness so Cultivate and Kodama's Reach have remained in there for now.  Meh to bleh on seeing in opening hand [Man, really should overcome laziness and find better]

So, out of 7 decks that I have it in currently, 3 I'm likely to remove it from if I find something else or at least get around to digging out copies of that something, 2 where it has done a good to great job in, 1 that I'm ambivalent on and 1 that I haven't tested so don't know how well it plays.  The 2 where its great [YMMV] are both 5 CMC commanders that want to hit the board early and are aggressive commanders overall.  Both also have some minor land synergies and Ghired is also 3 colors.   

And for some additional context, when I do get to play, the people I play with are older players that run good amounts of removal and have strong 'bolt the bird' mentalities so I run very few mana dorks in general because they don't ever live.

Morganator 2.0

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #7 am: August 14, 2020, 01:16:30 Vormittag »
Xenagos, God of Revels which has a lot of high CMC fatties so is key to the strategy of the deck plus wants Xenagos out early.  From playing the deck, Cultivate has worked very well at helping execute the game plan.  I want to see this in my opening hand.

Ghired, Conclave Exile, expressly to ramp into my commander asap, has been a good fit so far.  I like seeing this in my opening hand.

Alright, I want to take a moment to talk about these two.

When you say "early" and "ASAP", what turn are you talking about? Because I've used Cultivate in decks that also wanted their commander out as soon as possible and were also CMC 5 in 3-color decks, and Cultivate just wasn't good enough. Hell, I'm strongly considering removing it from my Haldan+Pako because I'm aiming to get Pako, Arcane Retriever out by turn 3, and Cultivate just isn't good for that. Sure, it works if I play a mana dork turn 1 and Cultivate turn 2, but any other mana ramp could work in it's place.

So for Xenagos and Ghired, what turn were you trying to get them out by, and why is Cultivate a better choice for these decks than any other mana ramp you could use in it's place?

Aetherium Slinky

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #8 am: August 14, 2020, 01:54:05 Vormittag »
Cultivate sits at a weird point being almost useless for any commander up to four mana. If you need five or six it's great. I run it in my Rosheen Meanderer deck for some Big Hydra reasons but other than that I prefer rocks, dorks and 2 CMC land ramp. Having said that I don't think I've ever been unsatisfied with the results. I also play all the other land ramp, just not any dorks (which is something I should probably do).

Except that one time when my friend used a counterspell on my Cultivate. To this day I still have no idea why. "Bolt the bird" I guess but a full counterspell for that? I wouldn't waste removal or counters on someone else's ramp spells or dorks. They only set them back a turn or two maximum which isn't a whole lot in terms of a long game where politics drive the balance of power on the board. Foiling someone's win condition on the other hand could lead to that player losing, being set back by many turns to look for another win condition or just simply unable to win anymore.

Morganator: for a 5 CMC commander Cultivate on T3 will let you cast the commander T4 while securing that crucial fourth land drop (in addition to the one it ramps). With a dork you need the dork + four lands, which is a lot to ask. Cultivate saves a card slot in the hand because it gets you two mana sources instead of just one (a dork). I presume this is a battlecruiser-only problem with nonexistent or high CMC draw power that can't offset the disadvantage of sacrificing a card slot to a land in the opening hand.

Cultivate is very similar to Divination in my opinion. Both draw two and are sorcery speed. Divination gives you two cards at random whereas Cultivate guarantees two lands. Would I run Divination in my decks? Probably not, I'll be looking at something like Night's Whisper. Would I cast Preordain and then Growth Spiral in a single turn? That's an alright deal in my opinion - hence by this logic Cultivate should be an alright deal too.

Let's look at the situations where Cultivate is a dead draw: very early game and late game. Early game is a non-issue since you're most likely able to cast Cultivate somewhere around T3 or T4 anyway. Late game? Would I rather see the Divination I was comparing it to or Cultivate? Definitely Divination. Thus I don't think Cultivate's problem is the high cost - it's a good deal - but the fact that it's good mid game when you want to be casting a lot of other things, too. It's not necessarily an issue of power but an issue of crowdedness in the mid game turns, T4-T6.

I'm actually gravitating towards dork ramp due to its sheer speed. There are very few 1-drops in many decks and dorks definitely can fill that role. Plus, you've got the body should you need one even if you don't need the mana late game anymore. This is probably relevant for something like Overwhelming Stampede and the likes. People say dork ramp doesn't stick but what if they fill their purpose as long as you get a single activation out of a dork? It's like a Spirit Guide, a Lotus Petal, a Dark Ritual (Pyretic Ritual) or a Jeweled Amulet. I don't care if the dork dies as long as I get my Commander out and running. I get it that land ramp sticks better but so what, I'm a turn ahead of everyone else... Casting the commander a second time is highly unlikely anyway in many games so unless your commander is a kill-on-sight kind of creature I wouldn't worry about the commander tax being prohibitively large after losing a dork. With adequate draw you don't need to worry about casting things since you'll be hitting all your land drops.

Reasons why you keep cutting Cultivate:
  • It's crowded in the mid game
  • It's a dead draw late game
  • The sheer draw power of a Cultivate isn't stellar
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Xaarvaxus

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #9 am: August 14, 2020, 04:48:05 Vormittag »

Alright, I want to take a moment to talk about these two.

When you say "early" and "ASAP", what turn are you talking about? Because I've used Cultivate in decks that also wanted their commander out as soon as possible and were also CMC 5 in 3-color decks, and Cultivate just wasn't good enough. Hell, I'm strongly considering removing it from my Haldan+Pako because I'm aiming to get Pako, Arcane Retriever out by turn 3, and Cultivate just isn't good for that. Sure, it works if I play a mana dork turn 1 and Cultivate turn 2, but any other mana ramp could work in it's place.

So for Xenagos and Ghired, what turn were you trying to get them out by, and why is Cultivate a better choice for these decks than any other mana ramp you could use in it's place?

I meant 'Early'/'ASAP' as having a good chance for turn 4 commander which Cultivate and Kodama's Reach are pretty good at accomplishing (along with Nissa's Pilgrimage).  However, I haven't optimized all the ramp towards even this modest goal as two of the ramp spells I'm using in Xenagos are Migration Path and Skyshroud Claim.  'Better' ramp [2 CMC or less or the ramp is shit category] in the deck includes: Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farseek, Rampant Growth and Carpet of Flowers which have been fine but I haven't liked as much as they sometimes leave me hoping I'm drawing another land.

So why is Cultivate a better/stronger choice than anything else I could put in there...?  I don't know that it is necessarily as I haven't tested it against every other choice that could go in that slot.  I like that it gets me two lands for 3.  I tend to have a good, consistent start with Cultivate/Kodama's Reach in my opening hand with a stronger mid to late game over 2 mana ramp.  I've had plenty of games stall at 4 mana for a couple of turns if that was the ramp I had in my opener but Cultivate gets me to 5 reliably which is where the deck kicks in [admittedly, the deck has a high mana avg CMC].  I like that its land based ramp as I find dorks and rocks have a tendency to get destroyed but YMMV.

I'm not really advocating for Cultivate either, if it's shit for you and the meta you play in, cut it.  From this and other posts you've made I'm assuming you play in a higher octane meta than I, maybe by quite a bit.  I responded because your original comment did get me thinking critically about how the card played in the decks I was using it in and I had to admit that it was coming up short at least half the time.

Morganator 2.0

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #10 am: August 14, 2020, 02:23:42 Nachmittag »
From this and other posts you've made I'm assuming you play in a higher octane meta than I, maybe by quite a bit.  I responded because your original comment did get me thinking critically about how the card played in the decks I was using it in and I had to admit that it was coming up short at least half the time.

High octane meta. I'm using that. I like it.

It is true that my playgroup's casual decks are pretty strong. Not cEDH or even high-power, just well built. You're probably right, which explains why I'm always swapping out Cultivate for lower cost mana.

And it's always good to critically think about what cards you're using in a deck. It's always fun to find the perfect replacement for that one card that has been underperforming.

I'm pretty sure that CleanBelwas was right about the pre-con effect. It would explain the popularity of this card. It's just a readily available card that works well enough for most people.

I guess Cultivate just isn't the card for me.

Xaarvaxus

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #11 am: August 14, 2020, 09:52:56 Nachmittag »
Funny story to follow up earlier comments I made in this thread.

So, went to my FLGS today hoping that a trade paperback that I've been waiting months for was finally in.  Store owner informed me that Diamond had canceled the order on him [after all of this time] but to make it up to me [which he didn't have to do because it wasn't his fault], he'd give me 50% off on some MTG singles.  Staring at me in the case was a Cryptolith Rite which is now in my Sliver Overlord deck, replacing Cultivate.  Probably wouldn't have bought it without the discount. 

stuffnsuch

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #12 am: August 30, 2020, 01:04:54 Vormittag »
I run cultivate in my Kamahl, Fist of Krosa deck (or possibly Kodama's Reach, or both?) because I always have an outlet for more mana, so a late game cultivate can still be a useful and meaningful spell.  I can drop a couple extra lands and get another activation off of Kamahl.  I also run it in a couple decks with three or more colors, particularly The Ur Dragon, which needs lots of mana and mana fixing.  I play fairly low key matches, and most of my decks are somewhat budget, so there are cards that would be better, for sure, but I've been playing commander for over a year now and can still count the wins I've had against the guy I play against the most on one hand, and I swear I still have more fun than him.  He's a Spike and I'm a Johnny, and so I'm always trying new decks and he's always fine tuning old ones.  I don't really mind that I lose to people that just care about winning, since they will always play better decks than I do.  At the end of the day, I play the cards I like and the cards that help me play the cards that I like, and running Birds of Paradise every time just doesn't strike me as much fun.
« Letzte Änderung: September 01, 2020, 07:02:30 Nachmittag von stuffnsuch »

Marshstepper78

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #13 am: August 30, 2020, 01:09:13 Vormittag »
I think you need to be able to consistently play multiple lands per turn to use Kodama's Reach and Cultivate optimally. I only have them in my Titania, Protector of Argoth deck.

Slyvester12

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Re: Which decks use Cultivate?
« Antwort #14 am: August 30, 2020, 07:53:35 Vormittag »
@stuffnsuch
Who did you piss off? Every time I see one of your posts, it has a single downvote.
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