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Autor Tópico: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander  (Lida 6015 vezes)

MajordomoTom

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #15 em: Julho 17, 2022, 09:57:15 pm »
... but lands just feel bad.
I've often wondered if the whole lands mechanic, as integral as it is to Magic, isn't just bad game design. The number of games where I've just been stuck on like 3-4 lands for a bunch of turns and lost as a result is too high!  :)



I think that's why Rosewater designed Keyforge  without that concept.

ApothecaryGeist

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #16 em: Julho 17, 2022, 10:25:47 pm »
I have much respect for Frank Karsten and his math.  I do agree with many on this thread that his numbers come out a bit high.  I suspect that he was approaching the analysis from the perspective of cEDH.  And perhaps even 1v1 EDH. 


At a 4-player casual table, for the first three or four turns everyone just plays ramp and general board development pieces.  Very little interaction.  I think Mr Karsten did not factor in this portion of Commander game play.  You don't just want to hit all your land drops the first 5 turns.  You need to ramp as well.  On turn 5, you don't just want to be playing a 5-drop.  You want to be able to cast multiple spell.  Or to hold mana open for responses later.


And then there is the complete feel bad of drawing a land on turn 10, when you really need a kill spell.  While it's also not great to draw a ramp spell, somehow it just feels worse to draw a land late game.


Similarly, mana flood always feels bad.  Worse than mana screw.  I can't really put my finger on why that may be.  Perhaps that Mana Screw happens very early in the game and you know you're in for a tough climb from the outset.  While it doesn't become apparent that you're mana flooded until several turns in.  Then the game just becomes very frustrating drawing land after land after land after land.


When deckbuilding, I don't think in terms of - start with X lands, then subtract for each Y number of ramps.  I think in terms of - I need X lands, and X ramps.  Those numbers generally start at 35 and 8.  Maybe less if I have A LOT of card draw.


P. S.  @anjinsan.  Mark Rosewater did not design Keyforge.  Richard Garfield did.
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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #17 em: Julho 18, 2022, 01:25:05 pm »
I admit I read the article but didn't click on the Mulligan policy, gameplay logic, etc tab which has all this and a better explanation as to where he is coming from. It is a long read for sure but it does add more insight.

Mulligan policy: The first seven-card hand is kept if it has three, four or five lands and no more than five combined lands and Signets. Any hand with Sol Ring and one, two, three, four or five lands is kept as well. All other hands are mulliganed. The second seven-card hand is kept under the same conditions, with one difference: two-land hands are now kept as well. For a mulligan to six or five, after bottoming, we keep if we hold two, three or four lands or if we hold one land and a Sol Ring. For a mulligan to four, after bottoming, we always keep.

Bottoming is necessary for mulligans to six or lower. To that end, any Signets beyond the first are considered superfluous, so we start by bottoming superfluous Signets as much as necessary and possible. Afterwards, we bottom lands or spells depending on the mix in our hand, counting Sol Ring as a land that we never put on the bottom. Specifically, we try to get as close as possible to three lands. We first bottom lands until we have at most three lands remaining, and then we get rid of spells if we still must put more cards on the bottom. When we bottom spells this way, the most expensive ones are always bottomed first.

This mulligan policy was manually defined by me based on what seemed most reasonable and realistic. It need not be optimal. In fact, the specific composition of your deck should have a meaningful impact on your mulligan policy. Optimizing a mulligan policy for every possible deck can be done via stochastic dynamic programming, and while this would make for an interesting future research direction, it’s outside the computational scope of this work.

Gameplay logic: On each turn, we start by playing a land if possible, and then we cast Sol Ring if possible. On turns one and two, we then cast an Arcane Signet if possible. After a turn one Sol Ring, we’re done for the turn and can’t cast anything else. Otherwise, on any turn, suppose at this point we have N mana available from lands and mana rocks. Then on turns three and four, we cast a mana rock and an N-1 drop if possible. Subsequently, on any turn, if we don’t hold an N-drop but do hold a two-drop and a distinct N-2 drop, then we cast both of those spells. This is done so that, e.g., a two-drop and a three-drop is favored over casting a four-drop and wasting a mana.

Subsequently, on any turn, we play the highest mana value spell that we can cast, starting with six-drops, then five-drops, and so on, and we repeat this process until there’s nothing we can cast anymore. At the end, if we notice that we have a mana leftover and could’ve snuck in a mana rock, then we do so retroactively.

This gameplay strategy was manually defined by me based on what seemed good to me. It need not be optimal, and the same comments as I made for the mulligan policy also apply here.

Justification of the optimization criterion – expected compounded mana spent. Games are usually won by whoever spends the most mana over the course of a game. If you curve out while the opposition is failing to affect the board, then you will usually win, and on-board advantages are compounded over time. The way I view the game of Magic, permanents generate some kind of advantage or value every turn, for example in the form of attacking creatures, planeswalker activations or valuable triggers, all measured by the card’s mana cost, and that adds up every turn they stay on the battlefield.

To illustrate this way of thinking, a Lightning Greaves on turn two will contribute two mana per turn for the rest of the game. A Mayhem Devil on turn three will contribute three mana on turn three, three mana on turn four and so on. Likewise, a Parallel Lives will contribute four mana for every turn it stays on the battlefield, and a Venser, the Sojourner will contribute five mana per turn. In my experience, thinking in this way often leads to well-crafted Magic decks, which is why I find this criterion appealing.

Justification of the optimization criterion – the relevant length of a typical game is seven turns. Maybe it takes a few more turns for the game to truly end, but in my experience, usually one player will have an insurmountable board presence by turn seven, at least in Limited or Standard. In any case, the first seven turns represent the early-to-mid-game, which is the part of the game where curving out matters the most. And given that you generally start with seven cards in hand, if you play a land and a spell on every turn, then turn seven represents the last turn before you run out of cards. With these ideas in mind, I applied this turn seven assumption for Standard and Limited previously. For Commander, I watched the last five matches on The Command Zone’s Game Knights and saw that on average, the first player lost by turn eight or nine. This closely matched the average game length in Limited, and therefore I kept the relevant game length for Commander the same as for single player 40-card or 60-card formats.  Again, cEDH where players have Vintage-level turn-three combo decks is a different animal, and my work won’t be very useful there.

Permanents don’t draw cards, tap for mana or act as mana sinks: Real decks may play cards like Llanowar Elves, Beast Whisperer or Shalai, Voice of Plenty, and their abilities might influence your mana curve. However, given the computational limitations of simulation optimization, we must keep the model simple.

When applying my model framework to real decks, you may view Llanowar Elves as a combination of a mana rock and a one-drop, and you may view Beast Whisperer or Shalai as regular four-drops. However, if your deck contains a large number of card draw effects and/or mana sinks, then you may still be able to efficiently use your mana with one fewer five-drop and/or one fewer 6-drop than the tables in this article will indicate.

Mana rocks don’t contribute towards compounded mana spent: Mana rocks are treated as lands that cost two mana to cast. If you have Arcane Signet on the battlefield, then it does not contribute two mana towards the compounded mana criterion. Indeed, it doesn’t attack, block, or provide any beneficial triggers or abilities. Its value lies in letting your cast relevant N-drops, all of which do contribute towards the compounded mana criterion, more quickly.

Six-drops count as 6.2 mana: The power of spells tends to increase disproportionally beyond five mana. For example, in Limited you have vanilla 3/3s for three, vanilla 4/4s for four and vanilla 5/5s for five, but the classic six-drop is Colossal Dreadmaw, which has trample as a bonus. Which is fair because reaching six or more mana is not trivial and won’t happen every game. It’s a bit of guesswork, but based on 20+ years of competitive Magic experience, I pegged a six-drop as being worth 6.2 mana.

We play against a goldfish: Opponents are assumed to not interact, which also means that we never recast our Commander a second time. This assumption facilitates the analysis. Yet in real games, if a good curve-out forces opponents to spend mana to interact with us, then that means that this curve-out was still worthwhile.

Mana rock modeling: Our deck always contains one Sol Ring and an adjustable number of Arcane Signets. In real Commander decks, we can of course run only one actual Arcane Signet, but its effect is very similar to Three Visits, Signets, Talismans, Fellwar Stone, Nature’s Lore and other Commander staples. They all reasonably modeled as an Arcane Signet for the purpose of this work.

I considered the addition of three-mana ramp spells like Cultivate or Kodama’s Reach as a separate category, but I decided against that because an extra card type would complicate the optimization and gameplay logic considerably. Moreover, it would make the results applicable only to green decks, which wouldn’t be right. If you would like to apply my model framework to real decks, then I’d view spells like Cultivate or Kodama’s Reach as a combination of a mana rock and a three-drop.

No color requirements or tapped lands: Incorporating these features would make the model far too complicated. Instead, all lands are basically Command Towers. In reality, well-built mana bases generally shouldn’t run into color screw very often and should limit the number of tapped lands, so I expect that the impact of this assumption is limited.

If your actual deck has a large number of tapped lands, then you may want to run slightly fewer one-drops than my results would suggest. That’s because a tapped land is kind of like a one-drop, especially when you would often play such a land on the first turn of the game.

All cards are on-board effects: This assumption facilitates the analysis. But even interactive spells like Swords to Plowshares or counterspells could be seen as one-drops and two-drops, respectively, because subtracting something from the opposition is akin to adding to your own battlefield.

No card draw spells: Card draw spells or cantrips are not included in the model at the moment, but I did consider them. After all, cards like Brainstorm, Read the Bones, Harmonize and so on are popular inclusions, and a bunch of cheap cantrips could reduce your land count slightly. So initially, I incorporated card draw spells as an option. Unfortunately, in my first runs (which was based on four-mana Commanders), my optimization algorithm never chose to put Divination or Harmonize in the final deck. Given these initial results, I removed card draw spells from consideration altogether to speed up the optimization.

The fact that my optimization algorithm avoided Divination and Harmonize make sense because my simplified model ends on turn seven and has no specific cards, combos, colors or synergies to dig for. Nor does it feature sweepers or other spells that can regain lost tempo. In my model, casting Divination on turn six would often draw you into a three-drop and a superfluous land, in which case you would generally be better off by just drawing that three-drop instead of that Divination, and thus cutting Divination from the deck and adding a three-drop. In real Commander decks, card draw spells would be more valuable than my single-minded mana curve results suggest.

Evaluation is via simulation: In a model with nine different card types, the number of permutations of even the top 15 cards is astronomical, which means that exact evaluation using multivariate hypergeometric probabilities is not feasible. Instead, I used pseudo-random number generators to shuffle decks and simulate each deck’s performance a bunch of times to estimate its expected compounded mana spent over the course of the first seven turns.

The number of simulations per deck was a function of the iteration that the optimization algorithm is currently in. I start in the first iteration with merely 10,000 simulations per deck in an attempt to quickly explore. In every iteration, I move to the best deck in the neighborhood, and then increase the number of simulations per deck by 1,000. If we have to reevaluate a deck that we’ve seen in one or more prior iterations, then we combine the simulations from the current iteration with the ones that have already taken place prior. These exact numbers of simulations were set mostly for practical reasons: to ensure that the algorithm would finish in hours rather than weeks or months.

Optimization is via local search: The number of possible decks is also astronomical, so exhaustive enumeration is not feasible. Instead, I used a basic local search heuristic: start at an initial reasonable solution (based on multiplications of optimal 40-card or 60-card decks) and then keep moving to better points in a neighborhood until no better point exists. If that is the case, then we have reached a local optimum. If the number of simulations for the current best deck at that time exceeds 200,000, we then stop and terminate the algorithm in the hope that it might also be a global optimum. I have no general concavity results, but based on deck building intuition, I expect the structure of the criterion function to be conducive to a local search heuristic.

The neighborhood in question, in the terminology of Sklenar and Popela (2012), was a cross neighborhood at first and a star neighborhood at the end, plus the best deck from all previous iterations. The cross neighborhood, used when the number of simulations for the current best deck is less than 150,000, is all decks that are obtained by cutting at most one card and adding at most one card in total. For example, cut one two-drop and add one six-drop. When the best deck from the previous iteration, let’s call it D, was simulated for at least 150,000 games, then we switch to the star neighborhood of D, which is all 99-card decks where the number of copies of any individual card type differs at most one from D. For example, cut a one-drop, a two-drop, and a three-drop and add a five-drop, a mana rock and a land.

No guarantee of optimality: Since I used simulation and local search, true optimality cannot be guaranteed. For some Commander mana values, repeated runs from different starting conditions gave the same results. But for most Commander mana values, I got very similar yet slightly different outcomes in different runs. In the latter case, I re-ran the algorithm at least three times and picked the deck with the highest criterion as the final optimum. I didn’t run into these issues for the Standard/Limited models with six distinct card types, but moving to nine distinct card types in Commander exploded the difficulty. Based on observed decks changes across iterations, I don’t think there is a major risk of getting stuck in a local optimum, but there is an issue with random variance, especially with Sol Ring in the mix.

Intuitively, when the neighborhood consists of hundreds of decks, it’s quite likely that in the simulations, one of them is lucky enough to draw Sol Ring far more than average, which due to the power of that card would skew the results in that deck’s favor, even if with infinite simulations it would turn out worse. While I understand the theory of simulation and optimization well enough to leisurely set up something fun, interesting and functional for Magic, it’s not my specific area of expertise, and I’d say that this is currently one of the weaker parts of this study.

I considered several options to deal with this Sol Ring variance problem. First, I could delete Sol Ring from the model altogether, but that felt wrong because it’s the most-played Commander card overall on EDHREC and because it directly influences curves and land count. Another approach would be to increase the sample size, but my computer was already running for several days, so there are practical limits. Perhaps optimizing the code by using something more clever than the random.shuffle method in Python or switching to a faster programming language could help, but it probably won’t be the end-all either. Perhaps the most promising approach would be to use variance reduction techniques for rare event simulation, but I simply did not have the time available to familiarize myself with the underlying theory and to apply it to this problem. It’s something to consider for future updates, though, and I am open to suggestions.

I also welcome any discourse on my various modeling assumptions, especially from players with more Commander experiences than me. Twitter is an easy way to reach me.

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anjinsan

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #18 em: Julho 20, 2022, 01:13:01 am »
Well, this possibly explains it.

If you’re happy to take five-land hands and only aim to play on curve, you will probably end up with more lands than you’d otherwise expect.

To my mind, five lands is a terrible hand unless one of those two other cards is, like Mystic Remora or something. It’s the sort of hand I’d keep - because at least I have lands - and then regret.

Playing on curve is also kind of less important in EDH where games are longer, there’s probably more interaction, etc.

And card draw. I appreciate that card draw is hard… but it’s not clear whether he even takes number of cards in hand into account. Sure, you can say, hey, I have X mana on turn Y, but you can only cast an X-mana spell if you have one in your hand. It feels as though ignoring draw spells would actually lead to you wanting few lands so that you can cast more spells at all, if the aim is to maximise mana spent.

It’s really hard to model things like draw spells so people leave them out from necessity, but I kinda wonder then if there’s any point; the models are clearly not that close to reality, so the results are always suspect at best.

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #19 em: Julho 20, 2022, 05:50:06 am »
Well, this possibly explains it.

If you’re happy to take five-land hands and only aim to play on curve, you will probably end up with more lands than you’d otherwise expect.

To my mind, five lands is a terrible hand unless one of those two other cards is, like Mystic Remora or something. It’s the sort of hand I’d keep - because at least I have lands - and then regret.

Playing on curve is also kind of less important in EDH where games are longer, there’s probably more interaction, etc.

And card draw. I appreciate that card draw is hard… but it’s not clear whether he even takes number of cards in hand into account. Sure, you can say, hey, I have X mana on turn Y, but you can only cast an X-mana spell if you have one in your hand. It feels as though ignoring draw spells would actually lead to you wanting few lands so that you can cast more spells at all, if the aim is to maximise mana spent.

It’s really hard to model things like draw spells so people leave them out from necessity, but I kinda wonder then if there’s any point; the models are clearly not that close to reality, so the results are always suspect at best.
You have a very good point. Napkin math time.

If the starting hand is 7+1 cards you've got roughly 4 mana sources in hand. 1 of those is a ramp spell, 3 are lands. You'll be done playing those mana sources by turn 3 which means you've drawn 2 more cards by then (1 of which is again a mana source). Basically you're done playing mana on turn 4 and you should have ~5 mana available on that turn. The remaining cards are obviously gas, gas, gas! 11-5=6 cards that contribute towards the actual game state.

Now is that a lot?
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robort

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #20 em: Julho 20, 2022, 02:15:08 pm »
My simple questions to Frank would be when assessing this. The 1vs1 and/or limited deck building mind set. How much and how long of mind set was used in assessing this? While the 1vs1 criteria is good and all it just won't equal a 3vs1 multiplayer game. Now while reading and interpreting this part of the article of Results: Optimal mana curves for 99-card decks. Realizing where the 0's are on this chart. With a 3 drop commander it is suggested there be 0 3 drops. With an exuberant amount of powerful 3 drops for commander why wouldn't I want them being used in the 3 drop slot? Playing only my commander on turn 3 may in fact not be optimal. Some 3 drops are definitely more powerful then 4 drops which can be used with 4 mana. Granted I get 1 unspent mana when I play a 3 drop with 4 mana available but I have access to a more powerful card. Using this criteria with the 3 drop commander you have an avg curve of 3.17. Why wouldn't a person want to decrease this avg by even dropping from 42 lands to 40 lands and 2 extra signets? Granted it wouldn't be a significant drop in the avg but would drop it non the less. It would then allow me to play the 5 and 6 drops a turn earlier. Now the avg on a 2 mana commander your avg increases to 3.43 and the question is why?

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #21 em: Julho 20, 2022, 07:37:42 pm »
After going back through and fully reading the article, I'm not sure it's even worth analyzing. The model abstracts away too much to be useful in real context. It's like the physics homework questions in college that start with "Assume gravity = 10 m/s^2, Pi is equal to 3, e is equal to 2, and all other forces are negligible. Now, solve the problem." Sure, it's modeling something. That something just isn't a normal EDH deck. Pretending that all cards aside from lands and insert basic rock here are vanilla permanents is too simplified to be applicable. The author mentions the difficulties of multivariate analysis, but I don't think throwing our hands up and saying "a good model is impossible, but here are some numbers anyway" is a good solution.
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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #22 em: Julho 21, 2022, 12:53:24 pm »
After going back through and fully reading the article, I'm not sure it's even worth analyzing. The model abstracts away too much to be useful in real context. It's like the physics homework questions in college that start with "Assume gravity = 10 m/s^2, Pi is equal to 3, e is equal to 2, and all other forces are negligible. Now, solve the problem." Sure, it's modeling something. That something just isn't a normal EDH deck. Pretending that all cards aside from lands and insert basic rock here are vanilla permanents is too simplified to be applicable. The author mentions the difficulties of multivariate analysis, but I don't think throwing our hands up and saying "a good model is impossible, but here are some numbers anyway" is a good solution.
On that note - in your honest opinion - which model do you prefer? The one we put together or Karsten's or something else completely? All are valid options if you think our model is also based on too many assumptions.
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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #23 em: Julho 21, 2022, 03:53:14 pm »
Currently, I prefer your model as it is much closer to my experience.

For example, I have a landfall deck that runs 40 lands. The deck loves playing lands and gets tons of value out of basics with engines like Omnath, Locus of Rage and Scute Swarm. Even then, I occasionally get games in which I get flooded. If Omnath gets shut down and all I'm drawing is lands, the game goes poorly.

All of my other decks have between 32 and 36 lands with a lot of ramp (sometimes 20+ pieces). As long as I mulligan to a decent hand, I practically never have mana issues. Yes, it still happens once in a long while, but less often than the Omnath deck draws 3-4 lands in a row and loses me the game.

Any time I've tried increasing land counts in my decks, I usually go back and replace the extra lands with ramp pieces instead. People often say that ramping and missing a land drop is wasting mana, but that's only in a vacuum. Mana dorks and rocks have synergies that let you ramp more, draw cards, abuse triggers, etc... Utility lands can have other effects, but usually at the cost of coming in tapped or being overpriced for the effect.

This is already getting a bit long, so I'll wrap things up with this. I would always rather play a Llanowar Elves and benefit from things like Beast Whisperer and Priest of Titania, or an Arcane Signet and benefit from Unwinding Clock or a metalcraft effect, than play a basic land. Sure, Gaea's Cradle would be better a lot of the time, but most lands don't have the same level of power and don't benefit from the same level of synergy. Landfall effects like Lotus Cobra are much less common than effects that want you to play creatures/artifacts. Even then, without specific cards like Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Oracle of Mul Daya, having multiple lands in hand doesn't have the same power as a hand full of mana dorks because of the one-per-turn limit. Because of all of this, I will often keep a starting hand with two lands, a mana dork, and a draw spell over a hand with three or four lands.
« Última modificação: Julho 21, 2022, 03:56:35 pm por Slyvester12 »
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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #24 em: Julho 21, 2022, 10:23:29 pm »
Playing ramp instead of hitting your land drops is wasting mana... but it only matters if you didn't need that mana anyway, and the impact is still much lower than not having any lands at all. It's potentially lower than flood, too.

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #25 em: Julho 21, 2022, 10:33:34 pm »
Playing ramp instead of hitting your land drops is wasting mana... but it only matters if you didn't need that mana anyway, and the impact is still much lower than not having any lands at all. It's potentially lower than flood, too.

My point was that I would rather have a mana source that also drew me a card or provided another benefit over just a land. There's a difference between having four mana available and having four mana available with an extra card in hand or setting up something like Mox Opal.

I would take the latter every time over not missing a land drop.
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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #26 em: Julho 27, 2022, 04:57:52 pm »
It is great to see Frank respond to you Mustakota :) The thing about Frank and I will quote him again "Based on my competitive experience in single-player formats".... Well his particular mindset keeps flowing to the idea of a 1v1 when commander usually is a 1v3 format(excluding the fact yes there can be more players), Multiplayer is a different beast compared to a single player format. There is more evaluation being done with 3 players compared to just 1 player. Actions may change on every opponents turn compared to just 1 opponent. Playing catch up on turn 2 because lets say 1 opponent played 2 rocks/creatures/ramp spells while you other 3 players have only 2 lands in play is all ready a disadvantage to the 3 players.

He did say something that is relevant though "Ensuring that you have your early-to-mid-game mana is the most important aspect of an opening hand in my view, whereas running out of things to spend your mana on is relatively rare in 2022 Magic. Late game (say, turn 7+) land drops don’t need to be frequent" Having mana to have things to do/spend that mana on. The only time I see this rarity is when a person doesn't have mana (mana screwed), someone is top decking, are holding lands in their hand, and the cards they are holding just won't impact the game at that particular moment.
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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #27 em: Julho 28, 2022, 02:56:32 am »
After going back through and fully reading the article, I'm not sure it's even worth analyzing. The model abstracts away too much to be useful in real context. It's like the physics homework questions in college that start with "Assume gravity = 10 m/s^2, Pi is equal to 3, e is equal to 2, and all other forces are negligible. Now, solve the problem." Sure, it's modeling something. That something just isn't a normal EDH deck. Pretending that all cards aside from lands and insert basic rock here are vanilla permanents is too simplified to be applicable. The author mentions the difficulties of multivariate analysis, but I don't think throwing our hands up and saying "a good model is impossible, but here are some numbers anyway" is a good solution.

Very well articulated.  I never thought I'd see (much less read) a full-blown statistical analysis of how many lands to put in a commander deck.  I admire the effort, and I'm not knowledgeable in the field of statistics to assess whether Frank's analysis is good, but I'm pretty sure I can safely say that I don't think you can scientifically conclude what constitues an "optimal" number of lands in a deck because it is wholly dependent on how the rest of the deck is constructed and what it aims to accomplish.

That being said, his conclusion is incredibly close to what I've believed for quite some time. I don't play EDH competitively, but because of the core play group that got me into Magic, my stronger decks are in a weird position where they're too strong to be considered casual but far too weak to be competitive... and then I just have fun jank decks.  Regardless of category or power level of my decks, I seem to find myself settling on 36 plus or minus one, only varying from that in edge cases.

An interesting heuristic I've seen is 30 + CMC of commander + number of colors in commander's identity.  It seems to fall apart a bit on the far ends of the scale (cheap mono-colored commanders or most four and five-colored commanders), but otherwise it's about right.  For instance, I have a Karlov deck that's running 35 but could probably function with the 34 of the heuristic.  My Jared deck is right at 36, and my Liesa angel tribal is right at 37 as well.  On the other hand, my non-competitively built Breya deck is still at 36 (heuristic says 38), and my janky "deck out Karona and pass her around the table for everyone else to kill themselves" deck is also only at 36 (with a number of dorks and ramp spells), whereas the heuristic says 41.  That's a heuristic by definition though: not great with edge cases, but otherwise widely applicable.

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #28 em: Agosto 06, 2022, 11:24:40 am »
An interesting heuristic I've seen is 30 + CMC of commander + number of colors in commander's identity.  It seems to fall apart a bit on the far ends of the scale (cheap mono-colored commanders or most four and five-colored commanders), but otherwise it's about right.
An interesting heuristic I've seen is "take 37 lands". It's about the same as your heuristic - if you ignore the extremely cheap, extremely expensive, 1c and 5c commanders, yours works out something like 33-38 lands. That's going to be within a couple of lands of a normal answer.

I could just as easily say "take 32 lands, plus the number of different permanent card types in your deck, plus 1 if it's a Tuesday" and it would be close to a sensible answer. It doesn't mean that there's any logic behind it.

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Re: Frank Karsten's article: optimal land/ramp count for Commander
« Responder #29 em: Agosto 07, 2022, 01:01:38 pm »
An interesting heuristic I've seen is 30 + CMC of commander + number of colors in commander's identity.  It seems to fall apart a bit on the far ends of the scale (cheap mono-colored commanders or most four and five-colored commanders), but otherwise it's about right.
An interesting heuristic I've seen is "take 37 lands". It's about the same as your heuristic - if you ignore the extremely cheap, extremely expensive, 1c and 5c commanders, yours works out something like 33-38 lands. That's going to be within a couple of lands of a normal answer.

I could just as easily say "take 32 lands, plus the number of different permanent card types in your deck, plus 1 if it's a Tuesday" and it would be close to a sensible answer. It doesn't mean that there's any logic behind it.
Indeed, if a rule breaks easily it's not a very good rule. Hope of Ghirapur - 31 lands in a colourless deck?
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