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English-language Forums => Commander Discussion => Discussion démarrée par: Kelly le Mars 31, 2024, 10:34:46 pm
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Hello folks,
I'll start by saying I don't play cEDH, so this is an argument for all decks I run, which cap out around power level 8. As a player, I like strong themes and tight efficiency, but most importantly I enjoy a game that has variety, swings and surprises. Winning is great and fun, but not at all costs and to that end, I've always felt Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) was a necessary evil, obviously busted but so ubiquitous that it's become a standard game piece in the format. I'd thought of taking it out simply on moral grounds, but I'd just put myself at a slight disadvantage and nobody cares, so for years I've just accepted it as part of the game, feeling slightly sheepish when I was lucky enough to get it in my opening hand. Yet, over time I think things have changed enough that I've been able to reason Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) out of my decks - not just because I wanted to, but because it actually makes sense to do so for me now.
The positives for including Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) are obvious, but from the casual commander perspective, over time I've found enough positive reasons to take it out:
1. Threat level & Utility. When I need it most in the early game, playing Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) puts my game plan (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Game+Plan) on blast. Later in the game when looking for answers and win-cons, Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) doesn't offer much.
2. Versatility. There are many versatile 3-cost rocks available these days (Cursed Mirror (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cursed+Mirror), Machine God's Effigy (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Machine+God%27s+Effigy), Eye of Ojer Taq (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Eye+of+Ojer+Taq), Glittering Stockpile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Glittering+Stockpile), Misleading Signpost (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Misleading+Signpost), etc) that ramp innocuously early game and offer value at any stage in the game thereafter. For the casual game, I find these all better than Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring).
3. Theme/Fun. I often anguish over which cards make the final cut in (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cut+In) my decks. In light of the above, cutting Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) suddenly seemed like a great idea instead of cutting something I wanted to play, but lacked for a slot. Getting that last card in sometimes feels like the cherry on top.
4. Personal Identity. It's not just Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) here, there are a lot of cards that could fit into almost any deck that shares a color with it. Personally, I'd only consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) 'good stuff' pieces if they fit the theme I'm building.
5. Philosophy. In the end (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=The+End), is it really important to have more wins than your friends? I think not. It's the comradery, the gathering. If I can pull off a win in style and get some laughs from the table, I'll cherish the memory. Maybe your group is totally down for degenerate MTG, but if it isn't, then what does Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) really adding?
That's my piece. I'm 100% sure many will not see it the same, but I'm comfortable with that. I wouldn't expect anyone else to pull it out, but I will focus them when they drop it turn one :)
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Hi Kelly,
Yeah, I have been thinking about doing similarly. I really like to tinker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tinker) with decks and improve them (as opposed to brewing new ones from scratch) and I always have days when I feel super idealistic and remove sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) from my decks, but the very next week I can't justify not playing it when I've spent hundreds of dollars to make it as powerful as possible. Your points are valid... but sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is just so good. The question is does its power outweigh it's homogenization and boring play patterns
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I already don't play Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and never will. I don't need it, and if I did there's the way more fair Sol Talisman (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Talisman).
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I took it out of my decks with commanders less than 6 cmc and not my top power level decks and I'll never go back. Games are way more fun not having it.
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Hey, that's cool others have come to a similar conclusion (or close to it!). Another bonus is I now have 20 copies of it I can trade in toward MH3.
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I already don't play Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and never will. I don't need it, and if I did there's the way more fair Sol Talisman (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Talisman).
I'd still go for a good utility 3 drop rock, but Sol Talisman (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Talisman) is nice in Prosper for the free treasure (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Treasure) when it finally resolves. I believe if were suspend (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Suspend) 2, it would get more love.
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I took it out of my decks with commanders less than 6 cmc and not my top power level decks and I'll never go back. Games are way more fun not having it.
Agree with this. Some commanders do need the boost if they want to come down early enough to be relevant, especially those released before they were designing with this format in mind.
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Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is so busted that IMO pretty much the only reason not to play it is because you’re deliberately handicapping your deck to be at a certain strength, same as (budget notwithstanding) the likes of Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt). Well, that and personal preference, but that’s entirely subjective.
Apparent threat is a valid concern. If you drop Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) t1 you kinda become the archenemy. But, the same could be said about any cards. Vanilla 2/2s are less scary than actually good cards, but you aren’t more likely to win the game with them - they’re less scary for a reason. We still have to do stuff that threatens wins if we want to win. Actually, the irrationality around Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) means that it’s probably one of the least scary cards relative to the advantage it actually gives you. People see a Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) and they flip out; they see a Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and they’re like, ah, a classic EDH card! (It’s perhaps why I’ve never been in a game that purportedly banned fast mana that actually banned Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring))
Versatility is a fair point, but Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is so powerful that I doubt very much that one of those cool rocks is actually better. I’ll often swap some 2-mana rock for one of those, or add one as well as my regular ramp, but none of them let me play Smothering Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Smothering+Tithe) on turn 2.
Theme and identity are valid… except that this is EDH, we’re not not playing ramp. So, why not play the best ramp? If you’ve cut all signets and talismans too then maybe that’s another matter but such decks are rarely viable at anything other than quite low power levels.
For the record, if I were the king of Magic I would 100% ban Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) (and probably a lot of other cards besides….) and I certainly don’t think there’s anything wrong with removing it, but I think most of the arguments boil (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Boil) down to houserules or personal preference; it’s not mechanically stronger not to run it in almost(?) all situations.
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If everyone plays Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and mulligans up to 3 times there's a 26% chance you see a T1 Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). If the decks at the table are otherwise void (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Void) of fast mana it creates a very lopsided start / game.
That means about one quarter of all your games are "ruined" by Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) if you don't like playing archenemy chosen at random.
Math nerdout moment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/120jvvk/to_sol_ring_or_not_to_sol_ring_variance_and/
I for one don't like that which means I'm taking Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) out unless there's a good reason to include it. I think all my paper decks either have extra synergies, enable combos, or have other fast mana. (Which means I do play Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring)...)
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Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is so busted that IMO pretty much the only reason not to play it is because you’re deliberately handicapping your deck to be at a certain strength, same as (budget notwithstanding) the likes of Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt). Well, that and personal preference, but that’s entirely subjective.
Apparent threat is a valid concern. If you drop Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) t1 you kinda become the archenemy. But, the same could be said about any cards. Vanilla 2/2s are less scary than actually good cards, but you aren’t more likely to win the game with them - they’re less scary for a reason. We still have to do stuff that threatens wins if we want to win. Actually, the irrationality around Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) means that it’s probably one of the least scary cards relative to the advantage it actually gives you. People see a Mana Crypt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Crypt) and they flip out; they see a Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and they’re like, ah, a classic EDH card! (It’s perhaps why I’ve never been in a game that purportedly banned fast mana that actually banned Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring))
Versatility is a fair point, but Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is so powerful that I doubt very much that one of those cool rocks is actually better. I’ll often swap some 2-mana rock for one of those, or add one as well as my regular ramp, but none of them let me play Smothering Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Smothering+Tithe) on turn 2.
Theme and identity are valid… except that this is EDH, we’re not not playing ramp. So, why not play the best ramp? If you’ve cut all signets and talismans too then maybe that’s another matter but such decks are rarely viable at anything other than quite low power levels.
For the record, if I were the king of Magic I would 100% ban Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) (and probably a lot of other cards besides….) and I certainly don’t think there’s anything wrong with removing it, but I think most of the arguments boil (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Boil) down to houserules or personal preference; it’s not mechanically stronger not to run it in almost(?) all situations.
Hey, thanks for your detailed consideration. No doubt, Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) 'does the thing' (ie ramp, specifically) better, especially early game, yet that's also the crux isn't it? In the end (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=The+End) you can only ask yourself if you feel you need the RingTM or if you would prefer seeing something else come up instead.
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I took it out of my decks with commanders less than 6 cmc and not my top power level decks and I'll never go back. Games are way more fun not having it.
Agree with this. Some commanders do need the boost if they want to come down early enough to be relevant, especially those released before they were designing with this format in mind.
FWIW, I recently built an Ovika deck where I've chosen 11 rocks from 2-4 cost that smooth out the 7 cmc cast and bring utility. Additionally, it's worth considering inclusions such as Solemn Simulacrum (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Solemn+Simulacrum), Big Score (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Big+Score), Charming Scoundrel (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Charming+Scoundrel), Irencrag Feat (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Irencrag+Feat) or even Ojer Pakpatiq dying and leaving a land are ramp curving out behind a 7 cmc target. So far, Ovika has reliably dropped ahead of schedule.
(https://deckstats.net/decks/160835/2927215-ovika-ramp-v0-6)
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I for one don't like that which means I'm taking Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) out unless there's a good reason to include it. I think all my paper decks either have extra synergies, enable combos, or have other fast mana. (Which means I do play Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring)...)
Personally, I agree - but that only really works if everyone’s taking it out.
In the end (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=The+End) you can only ask yourself if you feel you need the RingTM or if you would prefer seeing something else come up instead.
I “prefer” seeing it come up than most other mana rocks - because it’s just stronger than them.
Now, I’d prefer games that didn’t have those at all (heck, I’m minded to believe - whatever anyone else around here thinks - that the 2-mana rocks are already too much)… but I’d also rather that all the decks are on a level playing field.
I do think it’s a bit ridiculous when people ban fast mana in their games but not Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) “because everyone has it”.
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.....kinda the same thing with Lightning Greaves (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Lightning+Greaves).
There is just more and more cards that are doing similar things.
Plus there are more equipment and other spells that can fit a certain deck type better.
Aka with me (Pip-Boy 3000 (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Pip-Boy+3000)), + Aegis of the Legion (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Aegis+of+the+Legion), Thopter Engineer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thopter+Engineer), Uncivil Unrest (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Uncivil+Unrest)
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1st what are degenerate things??? Without a clear concise definition because all the groups I play in do something degenerate in one way or another. But since this is about sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) then nah that isn't close to degenerate at all. So yeah focus on me when I drop a sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) on turn 1 while I focus back on you which then player 2 and 3 will win because of our poor threat assessment. I prefer to see what happens in subsequent turns after you play the sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). Because instantly thinking someone's deck is a threat because of a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is definitely the wrong mind set. There have been games excluding sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) where someone has plethora of mana with nothing to do with it. I've also seen the opposite of someone playing multiple turns of land, go but that doesn't mean they aren't or can't be a threat with other times they just aren't doing anything on such turns. I tend to put more focus on how optimized/synergistic your deck is then worry about your turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring).
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If everyone plays Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and mulligans up to 3 times there's a 26% chance you see a T1 Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). If the decks at the table are otherwise void (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Void) of fast mana it creates a very lopsided start / game.
That means about one quarter of all your games are "ruined" by Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) if you don't like playing archenemy chosen at random.
Math nerdout moment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/120jvvk/to_sol_ring_or_not_to_sol_ring_variance_and/
I for one don't like that which means I'm taking Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) out unless there's a good reason to include it. I think all my paper decks either have extra synergies, enable combos, or have other fast mana. (Which means I do play Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring)...)
This point is invalid because it reminds me of an old saying I used to use "if" the queen of England had balls then she would be king. Then "if" everyone mulligans 3 times there is definitely something wrong all 4 players. I would be asking questions such as "Did you build your deck right' or "How many lands are in your deck", "are you shuffling correctly" and so forth. Even at my casual play groups if you are mulliganing at least 3 times we do ask questions. We actually do want to start a game. So "if" is also highly unlikely to happen. But let's say it does happen and again Player A doesn't quite have the shuffling capabilities to shuffle his/her deck just yet. Yet while having a 25% won't guarantee to put someone ahead. For all we know they also have 0 or 1 land in hand with that sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) hence the game wouldn't come close to being lopsided cause of sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). They could also have 4 lands in hand along with that sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) (which again all that mana with nothing to do with it). Yet now with your scenario those other 75% of those games mean they won't have a sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) with the possiblity of mulligan again. Also that means there could be 5,10,20 games straight where your "if" scenario is applied and sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) doesn't show up in any of those games. Then again there could be 5,10,20 games straight where it does show up. A turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) has just become the boogy man of magic that's all.
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Whether something reminds you of a saying or not doesn’t make it valid or invalid. The point is that t1 Sol Rings show up more than one might expect considering it’s just 1 card in 100.
A t1 Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) isn’t always the be all and end all. However, like all fast mana, it enables stuff that only other fast mana enables, like a t2 Rhystic Study (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rhystic+Study), Smothering Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Smothering+Tithe) or Grand Arbiter Augustin IV (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Grand+Arbiter+Augustin+IV). It’s not so much a boogeyman as just a very powerful thing to do. This is simple fact; no one card will entirely warp the game alone, but it doesn’t take a genius to look at Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), look at the next-best mana rock, and realise that being twice as effective for half the price makes this rather more powerful.
In cEDH we kind of expect this. However in games where people are literally banning fast mana to avoid this, it’s pretty strange to me then to allow Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) still to happen.
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Whether something reminds you of a saying or not doesn’t make it valid or invalid. The point is that t1 Sol Rings show up more than one might expect considering it’s just 1 card in 100.
A t1 Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) isn’t always the be all and end all. However, like all fast mana, it enables stuff that only other fast mana enables, like a t2 Rhystic Study (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rhystic+Study), Smothering Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Smothering+Tithe) or Grand Arbiter Augustin IV (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Grand+Arbiter+Augustin+IV). It’s not so much a boogeyman as just a very powerful thing to do. This is simple fact; no one card will entirely warp the game alone, but it doesn’t take a genius to look at Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring), look at the next-best mana rock, and realise that being twice as effective for half the price makes this rather more powerful.
In cEDH we kind of expect this. However in games where people are literally banning fast mana to avoid this, it’s pretty strange to me then to allow Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) still to happen.
Actually it does make it invalid when I just proved it. Facts are facts when someone is trying to use an "if" case scenario. While there is a probability of something happening doesn't make it so. A turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) also shows up less then one might expect. The instinct is "always" expect a turn 1 sol to be a powerful thing to do when in actuality it isn't "always" fact. Same thing could be said that Someone playes farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) on turn 2 while I just play a land and pass. Now that person is up 1 land and has more mana then I do come turn 3. That could be considered a powerful play because now I am behind on mana. So now I could use the same "of" scenario where we all muligined down to 5 cards and I kept a 2 land hand while that opponent has 3 lands and a farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) means "if" that happens it becomes a powerful play. Never mind it could be a fact that I am playing 34-35 lands, 2 mana accelerators with an avg cmc of 3.25 excluding the commander which is a 3 color commanders that cost 5 to play. Or I am playing just with basic lands with a 2 color commanders and my 1st opening hand indeed had 3 lands but they were of the same color. Or that I am not that great yet in shuffling 100 cards so I don't randomize the deck cause of my shuffling to have a decent opening hand. I do agree with the what "if" this happens, so yes it can happen but not as often as we'd like to think.
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Do you understand how probabilities work? How the math of probabilities is entirely about predicting "if" an event will happen?
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Do you understand how probabilities work? How the math of probabilities is entirely about predicting "if" an event will happen?
You do understand how human variables work? How the math of probabilities especially in this "if" event that doesn't include human variables? That the way one does or doesn't shuffle correctly can change such variables?? Never mind the emotional aspect of it all. These are 4 humans/people deciding to mulligan and shuffle down to 5 cards each not 5 robots. Ignoring the human variables once again doesn't make the "if" statement correct.
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So now you're describing error, something statistics and probability takes into account with mean, standard deviation, and significance values.
I'm a little lost now. What's the issue with Aetherium Slinky's calculations?
And what does this have to do with the decision to include or not include Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring)?
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So wait, your argument is that we’ll see Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) less than we expect… because people don’t shuffle properly? ???
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The calculations are just fine if there wasn't human involvement around. 4 players mulligan 3 times equals a 25% of a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). That's only if all 4 players/humans stick to said calculations which to keep it simple include lands and shuffling (each mulligan does this). Any player/human can derive from said land count because of a few factors. Some of those reasons include the avg mana curve of the deck, deck building skills, and just out right refusal to actually have the right amount of lands. Now brings me to mulligan which means shuffling. I don't know about you but there are some people who just can't shuffle or have hard time shuffling or just aren't shuffling correctly (which this includes those cheating). Correct shuffling requires it to be random and if it isn't random then that throws off said calculations.
Yet since such a scenario is very unlikely to happen because of other reasonings such as having a better starting hand before mulligan. Again makes sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) a boggy man.
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So wait, your argument is that we’ll see Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) less than we expect… because people don’t shuffle properly? ???
So you've never seen anybody struggle to shuffle cards before especially 100 or more cards? Now add sleeves to those 100 cards and it becomes even more of a struggle.
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It's not 3 mulligans, it's up to. Going down to 5 is a reasonable assumption in my opinion. At least I mulligan to 5 if needed... Okay, not everyone is hunting for the Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) hand, some hands with Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) might be bad (like no lands), not everyone plays Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) on turn 1 even if they have the capability... The probability of anyone playing Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) on T1 is lower, yes. My wording was "seeing a turn 1 Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring)", not whether people actually play it or not.
I didn't understand the rest of your arguments except the shuffling one which sounds a little dubious at best. I know one person who doesn't shuffle properly and I've played a lot of games. The rest shuffle just fine.
Actually it does make it invalid when I just proved it. Facts are facts when someone is trying to use an "if" case scenario. While there is a probability of something happening doesn't make it so. A turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) also shows up less then one might expect. The instinct is "always" expect a turn 1 sol to be a powerful thing to do when in actuality it isn't "always" fact. Same thing could be said that Someone playes farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) on turn 2 while I just play a land and pass. Now that person is up 1 land and has more mana then I do come turn 3.
I'm sorry, I don't see proof of anything. Having 4 mana on turn 2 is much more potent than having 4 mana on turn 3.
Compare:
- T1: Land + Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) (accumulated 2 free mana)
- T2: Land (accumulated 2 + 2 + 2 = 6 free mana
- T3: Land (accumulated 6 + 3 + 2 = 9 free mana)
- T4: Land (accumulated 9 + 4 + 2 = 15 free mana)
and:
- T1: Land (accumulated 1 free mana)
- T2: Land + Farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) (accumulated 1 free mana)
- T3: Land (accumulated 1 + 4 = 5 free mana)
- T4: Land (accumulated 5 + 5 = 10 free mana)
Assuming both players hit their 4th land drop, which is reasonable, the Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) player has had an accumulated 50% more mana to play with. How are these two scenarios comparable?
EDIT: Heck, let's throw in the lands only option.
- T1: Land (1 accumulated free mana)
- T2: Land (1 + 2 = 3 accumulated free mana)
- T3: Land (3 + 3 = 6 accumulated free mana)
- T4: Land (6 + 4 = 10 accumulated free mana)
Playing lands only is on par with playing Farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) up until turn 4.
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As you said you "seeing" a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) doesn't make it also degenerate, ruin your games, and archenemy.
As for the rest lets start that again with seeing a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). You have 4 players who have to have X amount of lands for this to happen to equate to %Y which is seeing a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). These 4 players can deviate from X for whatever reason which would then change the % of Y. Call the shuffling aspect dubious all you want but shuffling has to happen even at the start of the game. So shuffling correctly is keeping it random. Incorrectly defeats this purpose and then %y outcome would then become less random. I've played a lot of games to along with plethora other card games and there are people who can't shuffle. It isn't a life skill that is needed but can be learned in a matter of time. I've even seen people who still can't riffle shuffle a regular 52 card deck of playing cards after being taught. Shuffling 100 sleeved magic cards isn't easy. One also has to shuffle a correct number of times for it to become random as well. So again yes someone may know to shuffle but not everyone knows the correct number of times either.
You don't see anything but it is more potent not "much" more potent.
How are those 2 scenarios related? I'll first answer the question with a question. It'll be a yes or no because aren't you ahead in mana in either scenario? Now to answer it without the question. Both scenarios put you ahead in mana and while I agree one puts you ahead further but non the less both put you ahead in mana.
On that, enjoy the boogy man.
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OK you seem to be talking about a bunch of things so let’s break it down…
Deviation from the model mulliganning strategy.
If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the ~25% chance of seeing a Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) isn’t realistic because people may mulligan less or mulligan away their Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring)? Sure, but I think this strategy is a reasonable enough model and, anyway, the number doesn’t actually matter that much. Even if Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) showed up maybe 10% of the time turn 1 (and we’re not counting early-turn top decks, which obviously have a lesser but still-relevant impact) that’s quite a lot, and maybe more than most might expect.
Poor shuffling
The rules say people should shuffle to randomise their decks. They might not, but that’s not really something we can account for when thinking about cards, just as we also ignore all those tables that houserule Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) down to 0 mana and say it taps for 6, or the people who let you have it in the command zone.
Besides, does poor shuffling increase or decrease the chance of a Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). Assuming no I’ll intent/cheating, one would expect that actually it would balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) out, certainly if the first shuffle is good. So either way I think this is a non-issue.
Impact of Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring)
A totally different question is what impact Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) actually has. Now actually, I don’t think it is “ruinous” or “degenerate”… but I do think you’re understating it. It’s far more impactful than a t2 Farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek), which is already actually quite good. No or almost no semi-decent decks eschew 2-mana ramp, which implies that cards like Farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) are really rather powerful. If they weren’t, people would skip them and just play impactful 2- and 3-drops on curve. Then, consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) that Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) is about (by some metric) four times more powerful than Farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek)! It also lets me play powerful cards on t2 than 2-mana ramp simply cannot enable by itself.
The whole point of this thread, in fact, is someone saying they’ve taken Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) out and they prefer it like that. Now, obviously, you may disagree, but the examples I gave before (turn 2 Rhystic, Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tithe) or GAAIV) I think illustrate well just the impact that Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) can have.
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This thread is totally off the rails.
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As you said you "seeing" a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) doesn't make it also degenerate, ruin your games, and archenemy.
[...]
How are those 2 scenarios related? I'll first answer the question with a question. It'll be a yes or no because aren't you ahead in mana in either scenario? Now to answer it without the question. Both scenarios put you ahead in mana and while I agree one puts you ahead further but non the less both put you ahead in mana.
I am so confused. Do you not understand how much more 15 mana is over 10 mana? The discrepancy grows the further the game progresses! How is that not super lopsided?
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This thread is totally off the rails.
"Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Glory) and great wealth, yet it turned to their downfall." The Silmarillion
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Amjisan,
The poor shuffling and deviation go hand in hand but yes deviation also happens another way I have previously mentioned. Granted it wouldn't change the 25% outcome to be noticeable it just does. To get the 25% out come all 4 players have to play X amount of lands between them. Remember there is a chance to see the turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and you need lands for this to happen. I don't know about you but I've known players who play with the incorrect amount of lands and mostly not enough.
The shuffling aspect is yes we can think about it especially in cards. Shuffling randomizes any deck and creates variance. So at the bottom we have a 52 card deck of playing cards that "Riffle seven times and you’ll have a sufficiently random ordering of cards, an ordering that has likely never existed before. In other words, it’s unlikely you’ll ever shuffle two decks the same.". But magic players actually don't riffle shuffle because of course we don't like destroying our cards especially if they aren't sleeved. So this is normally done with some type of overhand shuffle. Now lets bring this 1st into the 60 card format and sticking with the 7 times to shuffle to make it random. To off set some of this randomness we like to put 4 of a card into the deck. We now go up to 100 cards and the 7 times goes up higher. Where that number is I admittingly don't know. I do know that shuffling does play an important part of randomization. I do know magic players like to have a much control over such randomization because of the variance it comes with. With the mulligan rule changes that have happened proved that theory.
Yeah I am understating sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) while everyone else is over stating it, It is so easy to constantly use an echo chamber (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Echo+Chamber) stating that a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) iis indeed impactful. Yes it can be impactful ss it consistently impactful? No because most everyone can remember a game where it was but not a single one of use will remember the games where it wasn't. So much easier to constantly point at the impactfulness then to look at it as a whole. So just echo what everyone else keeps echoing of sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) impact. This also comes from my own personal experience as well. I normally play EDH 3 days a week but not always. I play at my local LGS on Thursday from 6-10, my Friday night play group from 5:30-10:30 and again on Saturday from 1-6. I've been doing this well over 2 years now and avg from 9 games to 12 or more depending on what decks we are running. Are there games in all those I've played that sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) was impactful? Yes because 1 in particular I did myself which was a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) into smothering tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Smothering+Tithe), and then into anointed procession (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Anointed+Procession). That was only 1 time out (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Time+Out) of who knows how many games I have played. I can recall (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Recall) more games though were there was a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) has been played and turned into almost nothing. I've seen way to many more impactful things then a turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring).
Now I also know people over stat it because of those lurking in the shadows and a belligerent statement about my intelligence.I'll expect non the less on this part.
I am so confused. Do you not understand how much more 15 mana is over 10 mana? The discrepancy grows the further the game progresses! How is that not super lopsided? Let me take a wild guess (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wild+Guess).. 25.. nope that isn't it... 67.. nope that isn't correct either.... 2 nope that isn't correct either.. Screw it and I will guess 5 for final answer. But then again you didn't answer my question which is ok. It'll be a yes or no because aren't you ahead in mana in either scenario? Now as the game progresses does it not occur to you that a player or the other players are also ramping? Or is ramping mad progressively only for sol-ring and not the other multitudes of cards that supplant ramp?
Now on that you guys can respond, the lurkers can lurk(got to love the negative drops from them) :) After this post I am done and moving on away from the boogy man. So go ahead and fire away :)
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But then again you didn't answer my question which is ok. It'll be a yes or no because aren't you ahead in mana in either scenario? Now as the game progresses does it not occur to you that a player or the other players are also ramping? Or is ramping mad progressively only for sol-ring and not the other multitudes of cards that supplant ramp?
Both scenarios - Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and Farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) - had ramp but Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) was 50% better by mid game and even more so later on, not to mention early game. Yes, if everyone ramps then everyone is ahead. But if three players are on Farseek (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Farseek) and one is on Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) you've still got the same 50% difference...
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Remember there is a chance to see the turn 1 sol ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) and you need lands for this to happen. I don't know about you but I've known players who play with the incorrect amount of lands and mostly not enough.
Right so you're saying that Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) isn't so powerful because some people play decks with so few lands that they can't cast it, meaning that it has no impact? Uh... you could apply that logic to any nonland card. It doesn't stop Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) being powerful; in fact, it's pretty irrelevant to the discussion. When considering an individual card's impact on the game one has to assume optimal play (as much as it's possible to determine what that is). It's like saying a Ferrari isn't faster than roller skates because sometimes people forget (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Forget) to put tyres on it.
<stuff about shuffling>
I don't really understand what you're saying here but, again, how is this relevant? Firstly, we can't really consider (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Consider) incorrect shuffling since that's outside the rules of the game. Secondly, even if we did, how does it change the probabilities?
Yes it can be impactful ss it consistently impactful? No because most everyone can remember a game where it was but not a single one of use will remember the games where it wasn't. So much easier to constantly point at the impactfulness then to look at it as a whole.
Not so; I can definitely remember games where a turn one Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring) wasn't impactful. That doesn't mean it isn't still a bonkers card.
You seem to be saying that you don't think it's impactful because you don't think it's impactful, and everyone is overstating it because they've fallen prey to some delusion. Whilst the latter may actually be plausible, the former is a non-argument; I don't think you've actually put forward any real reason why having a card that costs half as much as the next-best ramp spell but ramps you by twice the amount isn't significantly more powerful than said ramp spell.
I am so confused. Do you not understand how much more 15 mana is over 10 mana? The discrepancy grows the further the game progresses! How is that not super lopsided? Let me take a wild guess (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wild+Guess).. 25.. nope that isn't it... 67.. nope that isn't correct either.... 2 nope that isn't correct either.. Screw it and I will guess 5 for final answer.[/qupte]Yeah, the answer to "do you not understand?" isn't "5", I think it's "no".
Now on that you guys can respond, the lurkers can lurk(got to love the negative drops from them) :) After this post I am done and moving on away from the boogy man. So go ahead and fire away :)
I don't really know why anyone votes or cares about voting but I suspect the reason you are getting downvoted is that (a) your posts are semi-coherent at best and it's not entirely clear what you're actually saying and (b) they make no sense, you're not presenting anything even resembling a rational argument, mostly just talking about irrelevant stuff like shuffling. If you want anyone to take you seriously, you'll have to try and put together something a bit clearer (and more logical!) I'm afraid.