Deckstats Forum
English-language Forums => Commander Discussion => Topic started by: WizardSpartan on January 10, 2020, 12:56:57 am
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If anyone has already seen Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) Hulk I'm brewing my own variant. I didn't come up with it but I'll find a way to make it my own
As soon as I saw Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) spoiled, the first 2 things that came in my mind were:
1. It's (arguably) a better Laboratory Maniac (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Laboratory+Maniac), in terms of the role it fulfills in cEDH.
2. It makes Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk so consistent and resistant to hate that almost certainly either Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) or Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) will eat a ban. I actually read into the topic of banning cards to make cEDH more interesting, rather than just a play Fish (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Fish) Hulk or beat Fish (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Fish) Hulk meta, and I think that Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) is the card deserving of a ban. If the committee just bans flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), then other more all-in protean hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) decks will rise to dominance. I think they need to cut the snake (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Snake) off at the head.
Would you agree Soren (and other cEDH players reading this)?
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The RC will probably ban Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) because they're stupid
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Hmm I don't know much about the RC (haven't read much of what they have said in general) so I don't know how connected they are to Wizards of the Coast, but I think it would be a very bad move to ban a card right after it is released.
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This was starting to get off-topic of Theros spoilers, so I've made this a new topic.
I think that Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) is fine without Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). It's a strong card and it enables combos, but they can be stopped. In decks like Varolz, the scar-striped (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Varolz%2C+the+Scar-Striped) it wins games, but there are ways for most decks to stop the combo.
When Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is added in, there are less ways to stop the combo. It requires an answer sooner, and once Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) resolves, there really is no way good way to stop the combo.
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RH-XlYHeBkan4V209D8tVWkrYkRJfZhCe5ild3vQQ14/edit
Here's the document I read that changed my opinion from ban Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) to Ban Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk). The problem is that if the RC bans Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), a non-blue Hulk deck, such as the aforementioned Varolz, the Scar-Striped (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Varolz%2C+the+Scar-Striped), will become the new tier 1 and that it will be strong enough to cause the later ban of hulk. I think they should just ban hulk and get it over with.
On another note, I think with the addition of Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle), Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation) and Tainted Pact (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tainted+Pact) should be under consideration for banning, as it is easily the strongest of the three lines for consultation and pact.
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They need to unban Engine and ban Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). Varolz will not be tier 1
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No F*cking WAY engine is getting unbanned. Don't even breath that mess at me.
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Great first impression. I'll chalk you up under people who know nothing
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Don't berate, educate. If someone is showing even a slight interest in a topic with "cEDH" in the title I'm willing to encourage them.
That article is a really good read. The passion the writer expresses is identical to most of the cEDH community. They ended off the article with stating 3 cards that should be banned; Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation), and Tainted Pact (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tainted+Pact).
I agree with this. Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is trouble because of Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk), so let's give I the Legacy treatment. Varolz hulk won't become tier 1 with a Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) ban. Here's the general (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=The+General) game-plan for Varolz.
Turn 1: Mana Dork (Birds of Paradise (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Birds+of+Paradise), let's say)
Turn 2: Cast Varolz, or some other sacrifice outlet.
Turn 3: Get Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk). This usually involves a card like Natural Order (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Natural+Order), Pattern of Rebirth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Pattern+of+Rebirth), or a combination of Entomb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Entomb)+Reanimate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Reanimate). Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) gets Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mikaeus%2C+the+Unhallowed) and Walking Ballista (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Walking+Ballista) for the win.
It's a predictable game-plan. There is no reason to play Varolz unless they are about to combo, so you know when you need to prepare your counter-plan. The Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) combo itself is also sorcery-speed, and can be easily interrupted with grave-hate or creature removal.
Tainted Pact (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tainted+Pact) and Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation) getting banned will weaken a bunch of decks, but not straight-out kill them. Food Chain (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Food+Chain) will get debuffed, as will any decks that use Jace, Wielder of Mysteries (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jace%2C+Wielder+of+Mysteries) as a backup plan (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Backup+Plan). These decks will still be strong, but other decks lower on the tier list will have a better fighting chance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Fighting+Chance) against them, allowing for a more diverse meta.
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I don't think Pact and Consultation are strong enough to warrant a ban. We should focus more on banning Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) and unbanning about half the banlist and then see what the meta is like
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Reddit cries for Nyxbloom Ancient (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nyxbloom+Ancient) to be banned. I think it's hilarious how little people talk about the Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) considering how it reduces some combos by an entire card (pun half-intended).
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Here's my thought process:
Cards that do format-warping things and aren't being used as intended deserve bans.
Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is both. It is obvious that Wizards' plan for Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) was to use it to give a creature flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). Also, (from what I've read) cEDH players are given 2 options:
1. Play Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk
2. Build your deck around beating Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk
It's very apparent that this is toxic and unhealthy for the format.
About Pact and Consultation:
They aren't format warping yet, but they are being used not as intended and create 2 card game-winning combos. Food Chain (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Food+Chain) decks use Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation) to find Food Chain (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Food+Chain) and exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile) Misthollow Griffin (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Misthollow+Griffin), etc. Jace, Wielder of Mysteries (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Jace%2C+Wielder+of+Mysteries) (and now Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) of Thassa at 2 less mana) use both to just win the game. When Wizards first printed those cards all those years ago, they wanted to make the exile (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Exile) part a downside, which is not necessarily true.
Reddit calling for Nyxbloom Ancient (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nyxbloom+Ancient) to be banned is a joke. They see any good card and immediately call for bans. It's 7 mana and has been spoiled for literally 1 or 2 days.
I think Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) does deserve a ban, as it fits into decks of any color and brings about very easy wins.
With that said, I think Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation), and maybe Tainted Pact (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tainted+Pact) bans will shake up the format, introducing new strategies to the spotlight.
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Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) is not even a very good card. It's good in 2 decks and that's it. Who gives a shit about using the card "as intended?" Magic would be a pretty shitty game if u could only use cards in the way they were originally intended. If it isn't breaking the format it doesn't matter.
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every single cedh deck runs rocks, every deck with rocks wants paradox, every deck then runs paradox. It's boring and too easy. Moving on.
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Sorry you're wrong, you still know nothing and clearly don't want to learn. I'm not discussing anything with you.
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Wizards (supposedly) playtests cards to ensure that they are balanced right. When players use cards in different ways than Wizards playtested them, those cards may be unbalanced in the meta. That's what I'm trying to say.
I can agree that Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) may not be super necessary as a ban, as it is a 5 mana artifact, but I think it would be odd to unban it so soon after banning it.
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Let's break down this association fallacy.
- Every cEDH deck wants rocks
- Every deck with rocks wants Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine)
- Therefore every deck wants Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine)
The second bullet is the flawed one. Not every deck with mana rocks wants Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine). You also need repeatable card advantage. In order for this to work in cEDH (as opposed to casual) you needed a commander that could provide this. In any other deck Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) was a dead card at 5 mana. Captain Sisay (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Captain+Sisay) and Arcum Dagsson (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Arcum+Dagsson) were the two that ran Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine). Urza, Lord High Artificer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Urza%2C+Lord+High+Artificer) used it for about a month, which is why most people forget (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Forget) about him.
I know this because I have been playing cEDH since before Paradox was spoiled. There were other fringe decks that used it (Keranos, Yidris sometimes) but it's restrictive mana cost and required card advantage caused it to be cut from most lists.
In casual Commander it was a late-game win-con. I didn't think it was a problem (games have to end at some point) but it was Sheldon that made the call, and it's hard to understand how somehow who takes emotional harm from Wound Reflection (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wound+Reflection) thinks.
No, I will not let that go.
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Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) is only really good in Sisay (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sisay), Arcum, and Urza (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Urza). It's good in Paradox Scepter but not as good. No other deck even wants to play the card. The only reason it would be odd for them to unban it is because the RC doesn't make a habit of admitting its mistakes
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Nyxbloom Ancient (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nyxbloom+Ancient) is really cool and all, but he doesn't warrant even being considered for a ban. There are so many ways to get infinite mana that another one seems pretty inconsequential. On top of it, he dies to removal. I don't understand the hysteria surrounding this card.
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The hysteria is from people who think Vorinclex should be banned
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It's hard to understand how somehow who takes emotional harm from Wound Reflection (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wound+Reflection) thinks.
Wait, did he actually say this?
I haven't read all the articles concerning the topic, and I am not trying to spread wrong information, but, from my understanding, Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) was banned because it made pretty much EVERY casual deck better (I know this argument can be made for Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). That is another topic). Tap 4 mana, cast a 1 mana spell, ramp 3 mana? That is a Gilded Lotus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gilded+Lotus) without the restriction of "any one color." Sure it costs, a card, but it is still powerful. It was a card that when you don't know what to tutor for, you could almost never go wrong tutoring for Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine). Similarly, flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hasn't been banned because it is such a small part of the EDH community.
cEDH is almost an entirely different format from EDH. I don't see why everyone on the subreddit and tapped out don't just make their own ban list for what is essentially their format, wouldn't that pretty much solve everything? You can keep Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) in cEDH while keeping it banned in EDH.
The hysteria is from people who think Vorinclex should be banned
I think the people that want Vorinclex banned are the same that wanted Iona banned. No fun to play against, not necessarily because of the double mana but when you really think about it, how often is it a problem?
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Because if u make ur own banlist it isn't cEDH because it's not EDH anymore.
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First off, yes, he did more or less (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=More+or+Less) say that. His article titled "Commander Cards you Shouldn't Play" has since disappeared from the Star City Games website but his words were "Wound Reflection (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Wound+Reflection) is a card that takes players out of the game emotionally."
While making a custom cEDH banlist is a good idea (one that I support) the issue is implementing it. When you go to Commander night at a game shop, it's safe to assume that everyone will be using the same banlist. Two different lists will just cause confusion. We already kind of get that with the multiplayer and 1 v 1 banlists.
What I would like to see is some concerted effort (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Concerted+Effort) from the cEDH community to get at least Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) banned. That article GolgariFTW posted makes a very good argument. If enough people could get their voice out, we might be able to sway the Rules Committee to make a change.
I don't have enough influence in the cEDH community to initiate something like this, but I'd still like to see it happen.
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I can see how it would be difficult to implement such a thing. And getting people to agree on what is/isn't banned will be hard without having a dedicated rules committee for cEDH like they do for EDH. I have another question though. If something like flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is universally disliked because of what it does, why don't people just stop playing with it? If someone builds a deck that I, nor no one else in my playgroup can beat, or is very very hard to beat, we eventually say, "You're playing ~? Okay, I'm sitting this one out." Why can't this happen across the entire cEDH community? I understand some people just want the best deck, which seems to be flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk, but after playing against an opponent once or twice, you know what the deck is trying to do, you know if it is a flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk deck. Simply say we are not doing flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk in this pod.
I don't have enough influence in the cEDH community to initiate something like this.
Honest question: Who does? Is there like a spokes person for the cEDH community? Someone on the rules committee that is a representative of cEDH?
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There are a few people, most of them are on TappedOut. A couple of them are honestly assholes.
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I think Red_Wyrm has identified an important point.
EDH is a format that is rife with "unspoken rules". Mass Land Destruction is a bit of a taboo so most people tend to avoid it. It's not officially banned and certain people will still include it if it plays into the strategy of their best deck, but it already has the reputation where people will agree to play with it or choose to sit out.
I think it's not out of the question for the same attitude to be developed for the most powerful or degenerate combos. With enough people talking about it and getting involved in the discussion, the same thing has the potential to be achieved.
Also, to throw in my two cents about a separate ban list, I think separate ban lists would be fine. I actually think the segregation and division into two formats would be fine too. EDH is popular because a lot of people want a way to play their old cards that they enjoy from yesteryear and get together with their friends and hang out. It's mostly a casual format and most of the cards on the ban list reflect that. They are cards that take the fun out.
There are also those who want to take the format to it's limit and see what powerful decks and combos can be made, understandably so. 4 player 100 card singleton is an interesting puzzle to solve in terms of resilience and consistency for a deck. I get why people love it.
The problem is that the list of cards that stop the casual players having fun and the list of cards that stop the competitive players from dissolving into a "solved" format isn't the same. The two communities want very different things. Would it be the worst thing in the world to give it to them?
Also, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you Soren. I don't think that creating a separate ban list stops it being EDH. It's still 100 card singleton with a commander and a colour identity and all that good stuff. I think it actually goes a huge way towards fixing one of the current issues with the format of deck power level assessment and giving the competitive vs casual communities the disparity that they need.
I don't believe that not changing something that is flawed because it "stops being what it was" is ever a good idea. We shouldn't be afraid to try and make changes for the sake of improvement. Equally, we shouldn't be afraid to admit if it didn't work and revert back to how it was before (Free the Engine), but that's an entirely different story.
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Since I'm not well versed in cEDH but I'm still curious: what would happen if they banned both Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) and Hulk? They're both problematic cards on their own - just in different ways.
Also you've convinced me that Engine needs to come back. My friend plays it in a casual deck and it's actually just another win condition and I can accept that. Playing with Engine doesn't take forever, it's just another combo piece.
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Hey,
first of all, the initial card, Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle). I understand why some people compare it with cards like Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Demonic+Consultation) and Tainted Pact (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Tainted+Pact). But I disagree about the strenght, at least for cEDH. The latter ones allow you to dig through your whole library. The Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Oracle) on the other hand allows you only to dig X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=X) deep, where X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=X) is your devotion. Devotion means you'll need some board presence. That's nothing you usually build up in cEDH until turn 3-4 out of nowhere.
I'm pretty sure you'll find a example deck that proves me wrong here, but I don't think those decks would need the oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Oracle), since they can do much more troublesome stuff than it.
For the comparison with the lab maniac, I wouldn't call it a better version. Pro: the Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Oracle) is cheaper and digs by itself Con: You only win the game if you empty your libary with the oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Oracle). Misscalculate here or play it to early, and this won't work anymore. The Maniac on the other hand still works a turn after he's been played (if he doesn't get removed ofc.).
About Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Paradox+Engine): Correct me please if I'm wrong, but afaik the reason why they banned it isn't that it's superior in cEDH with Sisay (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Sisay). It has become banned because the "kitchentable" players used it to generate alot of very long turns without finishing the game. That's just something unfun to play against. Imagine a player that plays 3 extra turns and you have to sit there and wait until he's done, because he still won't be able to finish at his turn 4 in a row. That's just boring.
For me it's sad that it has become banned, but my plan was (like they did in cEDH) to use it as wincon, in stead of extending my turns until next year.
For the Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flash) Hulk combo.. Well.. it's difficult. at least for me, both cards by itself are okay. they allow strong plays and kick off powerful combos, but you usually can do something against them. The real problem is the combined power along with combos that work completly on instant speed. For me, a important part of magic is the ability for interaction. But these combos basicly disallow (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Disallow) them.
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@Judaspriester
The Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) saves a card from a combo/is cheaper than Labman-Jace and is immune to removal. Labman needs an additional draw (+ one card to the combo), Jace is more expensive and vulnerable to removal because it needs to be on the board when its ability resolves.
Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) on the other hand only needs to enter: note how its ETB says the part "equal to" devotion. If you have zero cards in your deck and your devotion is zero (=Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) got removed) you still win.
These are the reasons why the new card is much, much stronger than previous Labmans.
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You have 1/9th the karma (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Karma) as you do posts. It seems as though no one cares to discuss anything with you at all. Still salty his favorite card was banned. But I guess you know better than they do.
At my LGS there was a vote on if it should be banned.
1 Person voted no. Out of over thirty votes.
He owned multiple copies.
We are all wrong, too, I guess.
The format is better without it. Period.
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Soren is a little rough around the edges but they are pretty educated on the topic of cEDH. I suggest we drop this and focus on the ban discussion.
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Agreed on both accounts.
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Let's start from the beginning. First they unban Hulk which then leads to problematic with Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). So to deal with this problem they'd either ban 1 or the other or both cards. Rebanning Hulk would lead to the "we made a mistake by unbanning Hulk" and with Sheldon's Ego I don't think that ever happen.
Banning Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) already before it even comes out into play? Granted it turns into I win more for the mill yourself decks but let it run it's course first before yelling ban ban ban.
Paradox conundrum: This runs into the thought process "it needs to be in every X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=X) deck" reminds me of Seedborn Muse (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Seedborn+Muse) in every green deck and Smothering Tithe (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Smothering+Tithe) in every white deck. Granted they are all nice cards but not necessary for every deck specified. Or as Josh Lee Kuai's favorite to say is "Vedalken Orrery (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Vedalken+Orrery)" needs to be in every deck. Then you also have the every deck needs a Sol Ring (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sol+Ring). The point is that Paradox was mashed into every deck no matter what because of the thought process. Just need to undo (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Undo)/unthink this type of process and agree it should be unbanned but that will never happen.
As for Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle), it just another I win more type of card. I say let them win more. I have that option of not playing against that type of deck and our playgroup at our LGS does a pretty good job of monitoring such a thing. There are like 12-20 of us on any single day of Thursday/Saturday/Sunday that communicate very well with each other. We don't stop you from playing whatever deck you wish to play but if it becomes the deck you use consistently then we don't allow that. So yes bring out the oppressive, the combo, the I win more deck. But if that is the only type of deck you ever play. We just won't play against you very often.
Nyxbloom Ancient (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nyxbloom+Ancient) Conundrum: It's a creature which is so easy to remove or counter especially since it is a 7 drop and this is going to the "it should be put in every green deck". Again a nice card but not going to be necessary in every deck or even close to being ban worthy.
Separate Ban Conundrum: First segregating Cedh from Casual EDH will be a bad thing. EDH is a whole entity not 2 separate entities. 2nd for giggles lets say you do have 2 separate ban lists. Who will determine what is a casual deck and what is a Cedh deck? If not then could I run a Cedh deck with a different ban list against Casual EDH that also have a different ban list? Could I then also say my deck is casual but in reality it could be Cedh? Could I then call the deck Cedh when in reality it could be Casual? Could the deck be actually both Cedh and Casual? Sitting on the fence and can go in either direction? The point is that 1 list works for 1 Entity.
As for Sheldon Being Butthurt. Yes he sure was, in a way I wish I was there to witness it.
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You have 1/9th the karma (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Karma) as you do posts. It seems as though no one cares to discuss anything with you at all. Still salty his favorite card was banned. But I guess you know better than they do.
At my LGS there was a vote on if it should be banned.
1 Person voted no. Out of over thirty votes.
He owned multiple copies.
We are all wrong, too, I guess.
The format is better without it. Period.
Comes from a new guy who already made a negative karma (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Karma). *slow clap*
Besides that, read a little closer what I've wrote. I haven't judged their decision, I've just wrote what I think. I don't like to insult people because they have a different opinion than mine. And the "please correct me if I'm wrong" wasn't a empty phrase. That's what I remembered from the paradox ban as the official reason. If I remembered wrong here, I've got no problems with correcting myself.
And please do me a favour and explain me why I should be still "salty" because of my favorite card banned. I've just said it's sad, but that's all. The engine wasn't even a favorite of mine and wasn't that present in my decks at the time it got banned.
Hmm.. I'm slowly asking myself, why I write this whole stuff, you've got 6 posts here right now, and not even in a single one you've tried to bring some arguments for your opinion.
@MustaKota
I've just said that it's, in my opinion, not that much better, and I've wrote the pro and con for the new card. For the typical labman combos, you've got a mana and a draw engine, draw your whole library and play the labman in between. unless you need to need to resolve the stack in between, you can just ignore alot of possible interactions.
What makes the Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Oracle) interesting is that she drops some cards from the library as ETB. This means you can't just play a removal on her to stop the combo. But you still need to empty your library enough so that the devotion is high enough for the win. This means the other players could for example remove other of your cards in order to reduce your devotion. And if the initial ETB fails, you can't use her anymore unless you've got some stuff to make her etb trigger again (flicker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flicker) etc.). This is far from impossible, but again requires additional cards.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to say the Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Oracle) is bad, I personally just don't think it's THAT much better than the alternatives.
@robort about EDH vs cEDH you're somewhat right. It isn't that easy to seperate here. It's somewhat like in alot of other games, different abilities/cards/champions/whatever do a entirely different job on different powerlevels. For example at League of Legends, I remember times where Akali was feared around Silver Elo, but at Platin+ she was next to never played.
Because of this, I often mention that I talk from my kitchen table experience (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Experience), so that others got a rough idea of my perspective. That's also the reason why I usually don't write comments for 1k %u20AC+ decks, becuase on that powerlevel, I usually don't care and therefore don't know that much about 20%u20AC+ cards.
/edit: I've just discussed with a friend about the Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Oracle) and at one point I have to agree with him: for Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Doomsday) she's better than Labman.
Btw @Danky, maybe calculate again, 382/1299 is a little more than 1/9 or 11% ;)
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I've been thinking about this all day. So far where I am is:
Why do cards get banned?
When they warp the established meta to the point where almost all decks are playing them or playing to beat them.
What defines the meta?
The top tier decks that place consistently across organised play.
This is where I think EDH struggles. The absence of organised play (outside of what independents organise themselves) means there is no real meta to work from. A meta basically comes down to local play groups and LGS's.
In formats where there is organised play, the ban list is shaped by that and all the casuals either follow it or ignore it.
cEDH has more of an established meta, but ultimately it doesn't mean anything without that incentive of organised play. If people disagree with the ban list, they can just choose to ignore it in their groups.
Other formats ban according to the top tier and everything else is secondary. EDH bans according to a few peoples personal opinion on what is or is not fun to play.
Maybe an answer would be featuring EDH in organised tournaments with prizes and status and what not. That way we work off that meta for the ban list and the casuals continue to do what they like. cEDH becomes the meta for the ban list and casuals just ignore it or do their best.
Obviously given Wizards recent changes to organised play this is just pie in the sky nonsense. But I think a lack of global meta means there is a lack of focus when deciding what to ban.
Also, there are very few cards that are ban worthy on their own. They all require the rest of the deck around them to make them degenerate. Neither flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) nor hulk are too much by themselves. I feel that the lack of a global established meta makes any argument for or against banning these or anything nothing more than personal opinion. It just doesn't mean anything.
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I think the obvious answer would be to have cEDH players act in concert to straight dumpster every casual pod with flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk until the RC decides it's "not fun" enough to ban something.
P.S. Yes, I'm joking. Please spare me your wrath.
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You have 1/9th the karma (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Karma) as you do posts. It seems as though no one cares to discuss anything with you at all.
Yeahhh I'm gonna have to tell you that you don't want to go down this road. We all have different opinions, and I don't think everybody is absolutely right. That's what makes what we are saying opinions. Don't get insulting.
I'm not really that experienced overall with cEDH, so it feels like any of my opinions are wrong in some way. I think I've said all that I really need to say, especially since I'm not even sure what deserves a ban besides something needs a ban.
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He's looking at Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) BECAUSE of Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk. I think you guys are missing why it's potentially bannable. It creates a Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) pile that is literally impossible to interact with.
We can't create a separate banlist because that isn't what the community wants
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I think I need to explain the Fish (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Fish) Hulk line.
Flash->Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk), getting Spellseeker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Spellseeker), Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle), and Blood Pet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blood+Pet). Resolve Spellseeker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Spellseeker)'s trigger first, then the Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle)'s. Spellseeker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Spellseeker) searches for Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation) (or Tainted Pact (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tainted+Pact)). In response to the Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) trigger, sacrifice Blood Pet (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blood+Pet) and cast Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation). Name a card that isn't in your deck. Your entire library gets exiled, and you win when the Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle)'s trigger resolves.
Notice how there aren't many options outside of counterspells that stop this combo. Also: no dead cards. Whereas most Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk combos have at least a few dead cards (Narcomoeba (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Narcomoeba), Nomads En-Kor (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nomads+en-Kor)) every card in this combo has use outside of combo turn.
I don't think Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) is a problem outside of Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk, although I am trying to do something with Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doomsday). It really is just Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) that's the problem.
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Wow. That is extremely powerful. Thank you, Morganator, for spelling it out for us slower folks. It does kind of seem to force every deck to either run blue or torpor orb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Torpor+Orb) effects, which can easily be taken care of via nature's claim (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nature%27s+Claim).
And my god, I go to bed, wake up and there are 15 damn replies to read. But I always enjoy reading these conversations, so I can't complain too much.
Again though, it looks like the problem is not Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle), but Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). If you can fairly ramp into 7 mana and get hulk in play and kill him, then you've earned the win.
I am trying to do something with Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doomsday).
Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doomsday) putting Future Sight (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Future+Sight) on top and Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) next. Cast the oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) from your top as Future Sight (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Future+Sight) allows, and your devotion to blue is at least 5 at that point and number of cards in library is 3. I feel like it would require some hammering out the fine points, but I don't see why it couldn't work.
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I am trying to do something with Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doomsday).
Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doomsday) putting Future Sight (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Future+Sight) on top and Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) next. Cast the oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle) from your top as Future Sight (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Future+Sight) allows, and your devotion to blue is at least 5 at that point and number of cards in library is 3. I feel like it would require some hammering out the fine points, but I don't see why it couldn't work.
It's even easier. Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Doomsday), Fblthp, the Lost (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Fblthp%2C+the+Lost), Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle), done. This way you need only 4 mana after doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Doomsday) in stead of 7 and you only need 3xU instead of 5xU. This means you can kick it off earlier or have more mana open for counterspells
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Morganator that isn't the main pile. It's Grand Abolisher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Grand+Abolisher), Cephalid Illusionist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cephalid+Illusionist), Nomads en-Kor (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nomads+en-Kor), and a 1 drop. U mill ur deck, flashback Dread Return (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dread+Return) to reanimate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Reanimate) Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) and win. The one you spelled out is one of the instant speed lines
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Wouldn't the line that Morganator described be objectively better, as there are less dead cards, it's harder to disrupt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Disrupt), and it operates at instant speed? I'm curious, why would the line Soren841 described be better?
I think Red_Wyrm described the situation well, though. Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) allows a player to bypass too many of the hoops of getting Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) work.
Who thinks that just Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) + Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation)/Tainted Pact (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tainted+Pact) is too good on its own?
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The line Soren described is harder to disrupt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Disrupt) thanks to Grand Abolisher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Grand+Abolisher).
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It's impossible to disrupt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Disrupt) after the Hulk trigger resolves. Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is definitely the problem. Pact, Consultation, Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oracle), Doomsday (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Doomsday), Paradox, Hulk, Ad Naus.. all of these are very similar in strength and are not format warping on their own. If we ban Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) and unban Paradox, those will all be played about the same amount, along with stax decks. That's a LOT of diversity, especially compared to the current meta.
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Morganator that isn't the main pile. It's Grand Abolisher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Grand+Abolisher), Cephalid Illusionist (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Cephalid+Illusionist), Nomads en-Kor (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Nomads+en-Kor), and a 1 drop. U mill ur deck, flashback Dread Return (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dread+Return) to reanimate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Reanimate) Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) and win. The one you spelled out is one of the instant speed lines
Oh my god it's even more powerful. The worst part is you cant disrupt (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Disrupt) once they've gotten the grand abolisher (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Grand+Abolisher), and there is no way to know they are doing that line until you see it on the table. By then it is too late. So really your only option is counter flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) or stifle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Stifle) the protean hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) trigger. So you really just need like 1 force of will (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Force+of+Will) or pact of Negation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Pact+of+Negation) in hand to stop either of those from happening.
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Banned announcement today.
With a busy year in the books, we open 2020 all quiet on the B&R front.
No changes. Huge disappointment on my part. I really did think that the push to get Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) banned would have yielded results this time. But to make matters worse:
In terms of cards, there were no consensus threats to players’ enjoyment and we’re not making any changes at this time.
No consensus? I wish I had this much audacity.
On the plus side, the commander website no longer looks like it stepped out of the 90's.
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Rip, I feel bad for those of you playing cEDH. You can always to a temporary house ban if you really don't like it, but they should have definitely banned Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). Ah well, their mistake.
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I really wish Gifts Ungiven (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Gifts+Ungiven) had been unbanned. :-[
Surprised nothing on Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) was done.
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I wonder (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Wonder) how the RC actually decides on banlist and rules changes. Democratic voting? Consensus? I suspect the latter given their recent statement, but I can't claim that I know the truth.
I really wish they were far more transparent. At least one paragraph per (un)ban or suspeects for those. Some words on Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flash) would've been nice, too. Really, they should mimic WotC with their B&R announcements at least.
I still have some semblance of trust in the RC. If Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flash) remains unbanned with the next announcement, that trust will be shattered completely.
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Even if paradox engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) was in every deck there's nothing wrong with that and it doesn't warrant a ban being as the card by itself isn't oppressive plus if that is what warrants a ban then with that philosophy solution ring should get banned. There is nothing wrong with having staples and in fact that is a good thing (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=A+Good+Thing) for highlander formats. However paradox engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) only saw play in 2 decks consistently that are considered competitive, yes it saw play in other decks but most of the time it was immediately removed as most casual players knew that it was a potential threat if its in the deck. I truly believe that the commander banlist should be reworked and the the rc could unban all cards it wouldn't be a problem as there'd be a much higher variety of decks. My playgroup had decided to each make 1 deck that disregards the banlist entirely granted we only play those decks when nobody else is with us but its very interesting and awesome to see cards that were never intended to be played together combo off but alot of the cards aren't even that problematic infant the only card that has caused problems is tolarian academy (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tolarian+Academy) in my buddies simic combo deck and he doesnt even need it to win.
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@Varatius
I know what you're saying, but some of the bans are honestly a good thing (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=A+Good+Thing). No one really needs Channel (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Channel) in EDH. Same for Tinker (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tinker). Back in the days before WotC recognized commander as a format, I got hit by a T1 Blightsteel Colossus (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Blightsteel+Colossus) more than once.
Also, staples are usually considered a bad thing by commander players because they spike prices and lower deck variety. The more slots you devote to staples, the fewer you have for whatever theme you're running.
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No one really needs Channel (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Channel) in EDH.
*Sad Ezuri, Renegade Leader (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ezuri%2C+Renegade+Leader) noises*
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No one really needs Channel (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Channel) in EDH.
*Sad Ezuri, Renegade Leader (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Ezuri%2C+Renegade+Leader) noises*
No, really, NO ONE needs Channel (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Channel).
https://deckstats.net/decks/132279/1454063-optimized-ezuri/en
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I believe having staples is a good thing (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=A+Good+Thing) as long as the staples don't make it ISO you have to play down a strict play pattern. Being an eternal format price should be a loose restriction and if price is a problem your playgroup can add or remove from the ban list as needed.
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I agree with certain cards on the banlist for balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) purposes but a lot of the banlist could be unbanned. The entire point of a banlist is competitive. You can't say your format is solely casual and also have a banlist. I think the banlist should 100% be based around cEDH, because of the house rules thing. cEDH doesn't use house rules, and casual does. Therefore all bannings should be made for cEDH and casual tables can do whatever they want.
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@Slyvester12: Little sidetrack from convo, but I've been meaning to ask. Why Joraga Warcaller (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Joraga+Warcaller) as an alternate win con? While it does give elves an arbitrary amount of power toughness, it is very vulnerable to removal and doesn't give trample/evasion of any sort. Isn't Walking Ballista (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Walking+Ballista) already better in that slot? It can win the game with infinite mana even through removal and it doesn't rely on combat to win. With non-infinite mana, it still provides utility, and it's just more flexible overall than Joraga Warcaller (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Joraga+Warcaller).
Seriously, though, there are good reasons for a lot of the long-standing bans, like Slyvester said.
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@GolgariFTW: You make some fair points, but the main reason I'm running Joraga Warcaller (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Joraga+Warcaller) is because he's an elf. If Walking Ballista (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Walking+Ballista) made Priest of Titania (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Priest+of+Titania) and co. tick up their mana production or got arbitrarily large with Ezuri, I'd run it. Warcaller is nice because, occasionally, I can use it to save a lot of elves from a Toxic Deluge (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Toxic+Deluge) (if Yeva or Vedalken Orrery (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Vedalken+Orrery) is out) or just harass my opponents and give them something that needs to be removed. Also, it only costs G, which is really nice when I'm trying to keep drawing with Beast Whisperer (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Beast+Whisperer) or Glimpse of Nature (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Glimpse+of+Nature). Warcaller can also do some silly things with Marwyn when I really need her to go infinite but don't have enough elves to get there. He's definitely last on the list on win-cons, but he can get the job done. If you have other ideas for a replacement, though, I'd be happy to hear them.
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Update on the EDH front.
Monday: Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) was not banned. Usually cEDH players are pretty tame, but today was a special day. Outrage, dismay, and disappointment were rampant across forums.
Tuesday: Casual commander players show support for cEDH. Most people agree that Commander and it's competitive counterpart are the same format, and a split would solve nothing. Posts about Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) not getting banned are appearing on both the EDH and cEDH subreddits.
Wednesday: Charlotte Sable of the Commander Advisory Committee released a statement. While she was for the banning of Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), the Rules Committee was not. The reasons against the ban were shoddy at best. Read it here:
https://jqlgirl.tumblr.com/post/190406057441/a-personal-message-to-the-cedh-community
Thursday (today): Complaints on the EDH subreddit about the moderators not controlling the number of similar posts being made. Arguments are still on-going, but vast majority of competitive players and also many casual players agree that Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) should be banned. Others say that there shouldn't be a banning for the sake of a vocal minority.
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@Slyvester12: The reasons you provided were pretty much what I figured. Fair, I need to reconsider taking it out of my deck.
@Morganator: Interesting, maybe the RC will cave to popular demand. I can't see the article at school, but I'll read it at home. While not personally affected by this turn of events, I find this very intriguing. :o
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I feel like the casual community is in agreement that Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) should be banned. This is why it isn't played much in casual circles. We recognize the degenerate things it can enable.
This site seems to be predominantly populated by cEDH fans. At least as far as the folks who post prolifically. I have a question. Why do you object to cEDH breaking away from Commander and becoming its own format?
In Charlotte Sable's post on the topic, she even mentioned that cEDH players do not want that to happen.
What defines a Magic format is its card pool. Sure, there are sometimes other rules that are different among formats, but it starts with a different card pool. (Brawl isn't just a 60-card Commander format. It's a Commander format with a vastly different card pool.) The Commander RC has stated that they aren't concerned with making bannings for the cEDH segment of the community, nor regulating cEDH in any way.
So why do cEDH players object to breaking off into their own format with a banlist that will work for cEDH and people managing the format who will listen to the player base and make decisions specifically for the good of cEDH?
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Up until recently I thought that cEDH should separate and have it's own banlist, with proper regulation. The past week has shown me that it's not a good solution. Even if people do make a separate format called "cEDH" it would suffer the same problems with Tiny Leaders, Pauper Commander, Brawl, and Oathbreaker; people just want to play commander.
There will always be people that will build decks as strong as they can, and making a separate format won't change that. Even though you can make stronger decks in Legacy, there are still people that like Pioneer. Same principle. I like playing commander, and making a separate "cEDH" format won't stop those overpowered decks from existing. There will be someone that wants to play Commander as strong as they can.
Also... I like being a commander player. I'm still a casual player and don't take things too seriously, even if I am always trying to win the game. I also don't like tournament play, but I'm happy being a side event, which is happening more and more with Commander.
In short, I don't want a whole new format, I just want the same format without Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). I don't think that's too much to ask for.
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It's hard to describe, but I think making cEDH a separate format would feel different. Like Morganator has said, splitting EDH and cEDH doesn't fix the problem, as there are plenty of people, including me, that don't play "cEDH" in its strictest definition, but they aren't playing absolute jank. I would feel a little stranded. By taking all the "competitive" players and giving them their own format, there's nowhere for me to go. I'm definitely not playing high tier cEDH decks, but I'm not playing laid-back, battlecruiser, "casual," etc. decks. Also, there's the confusion factor with 75% EDH players. Ex: Which banlist should I use? At one point is my deck considered "cEDH"?
TL;DR: It would leave 75% players stranded and confused, in addition to adding inefficiency, etc. that having multiple banlists brings.
Does this make sense?
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No format should have separate ban lists depending on the level of play, i.e. casual or competitive. That would be a clusterf*ck.
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GolgariFTW hit the nail on the head IMO. It would leave a high number of players in a weird position, myself included. While I don't play cEDH, my decks are pretty streamlined and efficient.
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I read and liked the article. I will start by saying that I have said this before and now will say it again. It is called the trickle down effect. It has happened in plenty of other formats. Where something warps the format to the point of where it is dominating a format. Such as certain card(s) that warp those other formats. So bans happen to restore balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Restore+Balance) to the format.
I will use a quote from the article to refrence what I mean. At any rate, these FishHulk decks are going to make the format stale and no fun whatsoever. In any other format, this is beyond the pale of what would lead to a banning for competitive balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance)
But we aren't talking about any other format though we are talking about EDH as a whole. Again not separate entities such as some may want it to be. You have the high echelon decks running FishHulk and decks at a lower echelon that just aren't.
She then goes and says "Commander isn’t like other formats in that its banlist exists for a completely separate reason to that of competitive balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance). Rather, the Commander banlist exists to attempt to set a baseline expectation of what is and isn’t acceptable in the format and to remove elements from the format that players at an average power level would be able to abuse to the detriment of those they play with."
A separate reason to that of competitive balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) says it all right there alone.
Then she says "but we have our own concerns about how making a ban solely for the benefit of cEDH players would be perceived by the broader community and if it would actually serve to “fix” that end of the format." I do agree with her here. Fixing one end of a format when we have an entire one entity format that doesn't need fixing.
However I can keep quoting and spouting along and I do care just like her ending statement "I want to find a solution to this issue that will work for all of the EDH community, both casual and competitive."
I figured I was finished but against the unopened mind that sent a negative my way without an open minded discussion on it. I will quote again from the article
"The one thing that is absolutely set in stone for the RC is that the banlist will never serve the purpose of attempting to regulate the format for tournament play. That isn’t what the format is meant to do and is antithetical to its goals. Magic is full of lots of other formats that revolve around tournaments and Commander is meant to be a haven away from the unfriendly elements of those events. (While many players enjoy these elements of the game, many others don’t and come to commander to get a break from them.) In light of this, a ban for competitive balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) isn’t likely to be allowed. Even if such bans did happen, they would reshape (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Reshape) commander into a format unrecognizable to those who love it for the strange quasi-broken mess that it is right now."
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Im curious, why is a ban for cEDH that doesn't affect "regular" EDH so bad. What does it matter?
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Im curious, why is a ban for cEDH that doesn't affect "regular" EDH so bad. What does it matter?
Yeah this is exactly my thinking. Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) isnt really played in casual EDH. There are better ways to give your creatures (and other spells) flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). RIP Prophet of Kruphix (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Prophet+of+Kruphix). You can run vedalken Orrery (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Vedalken+Orrery), leyline of anticipation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Leyline+of+Anticipation), alchemist's refuge (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Alchemist%27s+Refuge), winding canyons (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Winding+Canyons), I think a new vivian and some others I'm sure that are better than the one shot effect of flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). So banning flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) doesnt help cEDH, but hinder (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Hinder) casual play, it just helps cEDH.
I saw a post that I really liked, and I wanted to quote it because I do agree with it a lot, but at the same time, this isn't the intention of the EDH ban list, but I think that is a conversation that needs to be had. Okay, so I'll post Soren's post.
The entire point of a banlist is competitive. You can't say your format is solely casual and also have a banlist. I think the banlist should 100% be based around cEDH, because of the house rules thing. cEDH doesn't use house rules, and casual does. Therefore all bannings should be made for cEDH and casual tables can do whatever they want.
While I like this idea, there are some problems. We need to have a baseline, so when I invite Todd from school over for magic, I don't need to give him a printout of the 2 dozen cards that are house banned. Then poor Todd needs to change his decks to comply with our rules and potentially change them again if he wants to play in another pod. Also, the ban list has saved my ass. I was the first to drastically ramp up the power levels of our decks in the playgroup. building a decent Urza deck when it was released, and after the first night of playing him, there was a consensus that Winter Orb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Winter+Orb) and Static Orb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Static+Orb) should be banned. Our strict adherence to the ban list stopped this, but if we were making our own ban list, then this absolutely would have happened, but now Urza doesn't completely stomp their faces in, in fact, it is no where close to a guaranteed win anymore. (I still get groans from Winter Orb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Winter+Orb), Static Orb (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Static+Orb), Back to Basics (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Back+to+Basics) and Mana Maze (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Maze). Surprisingly not Mana Web (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Mana+Web).)
So why do cEDH players object to breaking off into their own format with a banlist that will work for cEDH and people managing the format who will listen to the player base and make decisions specifically for the good of cEDH?
If you see some of my other posts, some even in this thread I believe, I thought like this, but as Morganator said, not everyone wants to play cEDH, they just want the best chance of winning. These are the people that make nearly cEDH level decks without realizing it so they can smash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Smash) the crap out of their playgroups (guilty, but I've gotten better). The formats I know are Modern, Standard, Legacy, Vintage and EDH along wiith most of its variants. This frontier, pioneer stuff is new and i have no clue what they are, so I'll disregard them, but looking at the 5 that I am familiar with, they all have, as you mentioned, distinctly different card pools. They are all (except commander) competitive. The formats aren't defined by competitiveness, except for commander, again. Imagine being poor (don't have to, living it) and deciding to build a budget modern deck to play against your friend. When you say modern, you really just mean you are using the modern card pool and ban list. So you can make a poor person's modern deck that won't be competing at even FNMs, but are fun for you and your friend. It is still modern. It is the same thing for commander. cEDH is still EDH, but really with just a higher budget and more optimized decks.
We worry that it would just be a bandaid over a deeper wound and that we would all end up in the same position again in six months or a year.
This quote has been bothering me. I am not sure how to explain it, but I'll do my best to put it into words. I don't want to say that "bandaids" don't exist for these kinds of problems, but a solution is a solution. So first I want to discuss the difference between options and solutions. We have several options, ban flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), separate EDH and cEDH and do nothing are the big 3. Now I think an option becomes a solution when it solves the problem without making matters worse, but the problem, I don't think is clearly defined, so I will define it as best I can.
I am struggling a little bit here, so please help me out. This is what I have:
The printing of Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) makes a Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk pile that is nearly immune to disruption outside of stifling the Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) trigger. While powerful, what makes the combo broken is the ability to Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) out Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) as early as turn 1 and go off and win before anyone has even played a land.
So the options again are, ban Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), separate EDH and cEDh and do nothing. Let's add a fourth, ban Oracle.
Judging from the cEDH and even EDH communities' responses to the issue, I don't think doing nothing and separating EDH and cEDH are solutions because these cause too many problems. In the case of the former, backlash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Backlash) from the communities, and in the case of the latter, well just read the subreddits. So we have ban Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) or ban Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle). Either of these options could be considered a bandaid I guess, but sometimes all you need for a flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) wound (hahaha see what I did there) is a bandaid. Sorry, I just really want to fit that in. But back to my statement, "A solution is a solution." I think either of these solves the problem, so now it is a matter of picking the least worst one, which in 2016, turned out to be Donald Trump. I think the choice is simple. Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) just pushes Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) over the edge as it defeats the entire downside of having to get 7 mana. You are getting 6 mana worth of cards for 2 mana.
Okay so this last part was probably hard to follow, I digressed a lot and deleted stuff to digress less, and I think it makes sense, but I'm kind of confused in my head now, happens a lot. So the point was that doing nothing is an option, but not a solution, and banning Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), while maybe being a bandaid, is the best/least worst option here. Maybe a bandaid is all we need, maybe this is the cure, maybe its poison, but it is not as poisonous as the other options.
Before I confuse anyone further, I am ending my post.
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I know no double posting, but I think this should be it's own post, not combined with my last one.
A quote from the cEDH subreddit that I think has some warrant to it.
To be honest, it's comments like these which makes me feel a real dissonance with people I enjoy playing cEDH with. I don't mean to single you out, but these kinds of comments really make me think that *we're* not listening to the RC and not the other way around.
Every single article / post that talks about the philosophy of commander has always emphasized how it's not meant to be tuned to a competative space. Just look at the amount of time the article at the top discusses how great the atmosphere of people playing commander is. Not only is it great, but it's also significantly different than the other formats.
The problem with banning flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) isn't about "net positives". It never will be. That should be clear or else they would've done it. The problem is that they can't ban flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) without breaking the goals of what commander as a format was originally set out to do.
Whenever people say, "just ban flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) and don't ban the next broken card, simple as that" they really don't understand the ramifications. Once you bend a rule that you put out, it is sooooo much harder to create good reasons to keep it in the future.
Imagine for a moment that flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) gets banned. Everyone's happy. Now the next time a "statistically superior" strategy gets found, what are they supposed to tell people then? "We banned flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) before because we wanted to but don't want to ban [powerful card] because it was a one time deal"? Can you think of how mad people would be? And don't tell me you honestly believe that wizards won't create a new busted card sooner or later. You see all the bannings that have been happening in other formats?
They're trying to solve this fundamental problem. They can't only cater to us once. So they'd rather not cater to us at all than all the time. If you have a solution that fixes that, I'm sure the CAG or RC would love to hear from you.
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Except there would not be another deck as dominant as Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk.. it doesn't exist, because if it did then Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk wouldn't be dominant
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I mean if the goal of the RC is to keep EDH a non-competitive format, then wouldn't the banlist's purpose be to ensure the goal of the RC is kept true? I don't think it is as simple as this, but a diverse cEDH format with multiple top tier strategies is a lot closer to the RC's stated goal than a cEDH format with one top tier deck and a bunch decks built to stop that (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Stop+That) one top tier deck imo. Now that I have seen another side of the argument (thanks Red_Wyrm), I think the RC might need to adjust their ideology a smidgen.
Edit: @Soren841: The reason everybody is going crazy is because of Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle). Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk was top tier, but fishy pushed it to another level. What Red_Wyrm is trying to say is that Wizards will print another "OP" card that restarts the entire process again.
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Fishy didn't do shit. Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk has been oppressive since Hulk was unbanned. Fishy is just proof that without a banning it will continue to get worse.
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Edit: @Soren841: The reason everybody is going crazy is because of Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle). Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk was top tier, but fishy pushed it to another level. What Red_Wyrm is trying to say is that Wizards will print another "OP" card that restarts the entire process again.
It sounds like you're saying the only reason people asked for Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) to be banned was because of Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) which is far from the case. People have been moaning about it since Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) was unbanned.
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Except there would not be another deck as dominant as Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk.. it doesn't exist, because if it did then Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk wouldn't be dominant
The point of my quote was that if they ban flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) now, when there is another deck that becomes as dominant as flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk was, then they would feel obligated to ban that deck too, even if it isnt in the best interest of the rest of the format.
Banning flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) has little impact on casual play, but what happens when the next tier S cEDH deck arises and those cards do see casual play? The RC would have set a precedent with the banning of flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) that goes against their "mission statement" and are then faced with a tricky delima.
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I know that was the point of your quote, I'm saying that isn't true
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I know that was the point of your quote, I'm saying that isn't true
So you do not think there will ever be a card printed that enables a deck more powerful than the top tier flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk deck?
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I didn't say anything about the future. I'm saying if Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) were banned RIGHT NOW, there would not be another deck that dominates the format. Especially if they unban Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine).
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But the point is that it sets a precedent for the future. For the next time this happens, and it will happen.
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Edit: @Soren841: The reason everybody is going crazy is because of Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle). Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk was top tier, but fishy pushed it to another level. What Red_Wyrm is trying to say is that Wizards will print another "OP" card that restarts the entire process again.
It sounds like you're saying the only reason people asked for Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) to be banned was because of Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) which is far from the case. People have been moaning about it since Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) was unbanned.
I think I have been misunderstood. I am aware that there were calls for bans before Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle), but before, similar piles used Lab Man, which required another card to draw the card to win. Admittedly, I wasn't paying much attention to cEDH before this whole debacle, but I thought that, while obviously top tier and a bit much, Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk didn't have as many calls for bans as it does now.
Soren, we're talking about the future, like Red_Wyrm said. If they ban Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), they open another can of worms for any future similar problems. Nobody is disputing that banning Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) right now fixes almost all current problems cEDH has.
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If another card does eventually become as format warping as Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) then it should absolutely be banned. And you're correct, piles similar to Oracle used lab man and were worse. But those aren't the best Hulk piles either, it just made a new pile that was the most OP to date. That doesn't mean Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk as a whole hasn't been dominating the format for a year or more
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And Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) Hulk has been dominating the format ever since Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) got unbanned.
The slippery slope arguments from the Rules Committee and Commander Advisory Group are getting a little annoying. Of course something could happen in the future, but what could happen isn't an excuse for innaction. Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is a problem, that needs to be delt with. And if it sets precedent for another equally oppressive card in the future to be banned, I'm all for it.
The only thing that worries me is that Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation) + Thassa's Oracle (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Thassa%27s+Oracle) is almost as strong as Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) + Protean Hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk). Sure you can't win at instant speed, but it is still a low mana combo that only needs 2 cards and can only be answered with a counterspell (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Counterspell). I think that Demonic Consultation (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Demonic+Consultation) and Tainted Pact (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Tainted+Pact) also need to be banned, and if it's not done at the same time as Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), then all the slippery slope arguments will end up being correct.
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I would rather the slippery slope be correct than ban cards needlessly. The problem with Consultation + Oracle is they both need to be cast and your library is empty or mostly empty while you're doing it. It's way less safe and far slower
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So let me get this straight. If it isn't a player who plays cedh and says " this is stale and no fun whatsoever" because of X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=X) deck or X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=X) combo or X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=X) card is being played. What are they always told? hmmmm... find a playgroup that doesn't have X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=X) deck or X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=X) combo or X (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=X) card isn't played. Form your own group and make your own rules to stick by.
Yet seems odd that with someone says "At any rate, these FishHulk decks are going to make the format stale and no fun whatsoever" you don't get the same responses and answers for the player who says "this is stale and fun whatsoever".
I am sure the same reasoning is supposed to apply across the entire spectrum of commander. There is supposed to be sympathy/empathy because there wasn't a ban but that same empathy/sympathy is never shown on the other ends of the spectrum.
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Not true at all. Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) got banned.
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I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??
Now we take the responses/answers people tell player A and Player B and apply it to the issue at hand of flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)/hulk "this is stale and no fun whatsoever".
Those same responses/answers shouldn't be changed just because Player A and Player B are now into Cedh.
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I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??
The normal thing to do is tell Player C to stop pub-stomping the other two people. The issue isn't the deck, but the player piloting it. Whereas Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)+Hulk is an issue with the deck and it's nigh invulnerability (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Invulnerability) to interaction.
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I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??
The normal thing to do is tell Player C to stop pub-stomping the other two people. The issue isn't the deck, but the player piloting it. Whereas Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)+Hulk is an issue with the deck and it's nigh invulnerability (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Invulnerability) to interaction.
Exactly! Stop pub stomping other people using flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk.
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I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??
The normal thing to do is tell Player C to stop pub-stomping the other two people. The issue isn't the deck, but the player piloting it. Whereas Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)+Hulk is an issue with the deck and it's nigh invulnerability (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Invulnerability) to interaction.
Exactly! Stop pub stomping other people using flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk.
Your argument is that the cEDH meta should self govern itself? Kind of like how casual EDH doesnt run land destruction, despite it being perfectly legal?
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I am going by the statement "this is stale and no fun whatsoever". This statement is said by Player A and Player B who gets beat on turn 5 consistently by Player C. Player C is only playing decks that does this while Player A and Player B don't. The normal response is to tell Player A and Player B to??
The normal thing to do is tell Player C to stop pub-stomping the other two people. The issue isn't the deck, but the player piloting it. Whereas Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)+Hulk is an issue with the deck and it's nigh invulnerability (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Invulnerability) to interaction.
Exactly! Stop pub stomping other people using flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk.
Your argument is that the cEDH meta shlukd self govern itself? Kind of like how casual EDH doesnt run land destruction, despite it being perfectly legal?
Well... IF EDH and cEDH are the same format with the same rules then yes, it should. Unless, of course, MLD, infinites and "casual" are not a consideration when building a perfectly legal EDH deck and pub stomping is just a matter of "git gud". It's a powerful argument.
Truth is Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) needs to go. It's oppressive, makes things stale but most importantly it seems to divide people into EDH and cEDH camps as if they were two different formats with two different sets of rules. That is not acceptable.
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Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) + Hulk isn't fucking pubstomping if you're playing cEDH. It's just so much stronger than every other strategy that it's dominating the meta.. clearly you don't even know what pubstomping is??
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Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) + Hulk isn't fucking pubstomping if you're playing cEDH. It's just so much stronger than every other strategy that it's dominating the meta.. clearly you don't even know what pubstomping is??
All I was saying that since EDH and cEDH are the same format (have same rules, the same banlist etc) we should also let cEDH govern itself like most metas do. You shouldn't need RC to say "let's not play the oppressive fish today".
The alternative is that there are no such things as house bans, social contract or self-governing. In this case nothing is pub stomping because the point of the game is to win. We know this isn't how most players play EDH and that's where the similarities between EDH and cEDH end. For some reason. Now, Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) makes the gap bigger and more obvious. That's not something we'd like to happen because in our first argument we assumed EDH and cEDH are the same game, just at a different power level. Ergo Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) has to go, not only because it makes the meta stale but also because it stretches one of the main principles of EDH which is to encourage people to govern themselves.
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I was talking to that kid that said it's pubstomping
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Red_Wyrm,
Simply put yes even based with the philosophy of commander "The goal of the ban list is similar; it does not seek to regulate competitive play or power level, which are decisions best left to individual play groups."
So why can't individual play groups make their own decisions and self govern?
Then under FAQ about MLD and such there is another comment.
it’s a good idea to let people know what you’re planning before the game starts. Ask if they’re ok with it, and be prepared to play something else if they’re not.
This comes with the communication aspect of the game and the individual play groups.
One more though... Taken to the extreme, strategies like “Draw Go” or MLD, which aim to restrict opponents’ ability to act at all, aren’t forbidden in Commander, but they aren’t very popular
So while yes MLD is indeed legal it just isn't very popular.
MustaKotka,
The bus on dividing camps left a good while ago. It started because the title/label of C put into Edh making up Cedh and now it is adapted that it be called Cedh instead of keeping it as Edh. You've already have 2 separate camps because of people making a separate camp calling it Cedh. But agreed though with flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is sperating those camps further apart from one another.
Soren,
You are always to laughable. The close mind of yours and your childish rant once again. The only way you try to get your point across is either swearing at others or even berating someone. Unlike you I can have an open minded discussion so I'll bite. In my 51 years of existence I have played my share of games. I know what pub stomping is and what it means.
But I wll take the meaning of it from the Urban dictionary https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pubstomp
The game is typically very one sided, despite the games being created under the false impression that it is going to be 'fair'.
So playing flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk and quote you it's dominating the meta. Sounds definitely one sided.
Again from the dictionary "Can apply to any team-oriented game". Last I recalled that playing magic the gathering is a team game.
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Pub stomping is going into a casual (i.e. PUBLIC game) and stomping them with a competitive deck. If you are playing in a game of cEDH, pubstomping does not exist. There is an understanding that every deck is as good as it possibly can be not that the game will be fair, and if you dominate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dominate) that's because your deck is the best. Nobody called Splinter Twin (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Splinter+Twin) in Modern "pubstomping" because you can't pubstomp. If I insult you and call you a retarded asshole it's not because I need to insult you to be right, it's because I genuinely believe it.
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I'm going to take a moment to remind everyone to attack people's arguments, and not the person behind them. You can argue against people's points without having to attack the person.
This is a rule of Deckstats and of real life, so you should strive to follow it at all times.
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Pub stomping is going into a casual (i.e. PUBLIC game) and stomping them with a competitive deck. If you are playing in a game of cEDH, pubstomping does not exist. There is an understanding that every deck is as good as it possibly can be not that the game will be fair, and if you dominate (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Dominate) that's because your deck is the best. Nobody called Splinter Twin (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Splinter+Twin) in Modern "pubstomping" because you can't pubstomp. If I insult you and call you a retarded asshole it's not because I need to insult you to be right, it's because I genuinely believe it.
Again and I will quote myself "The game is typically very one sided" which you can't seem to either want to grasp or refuse to grasp. Typically doesn't mean always and one sided can also be unintentional not always intentional. Using Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)/Hulk typically makes it very one sided hence again to quote you "it's dominating the meta"
Now the meaning of the slang word pub stomper. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pubstomper
A pubstomper is a name for someone who usually goes in alone or with a group of people to a public server on a game and complete trashes them.
It often originates from games like Dota and Team Fortress where there is large variety in people's skill levels, some being amazing and some being downright awful.
Now another term "usually" and again doesn't equate to "always" and also again can be done unintentionally.
Then the amazing skill and downright awful also apply in magic the gathering no matter what deck you are playing.
So yes pub stomping can and will happen at any and all levels along with any and all formats of magic the gathering whether it be done intentionally or unintentionally.
So continually fire away with the insults and swearing. I will continue to fire back with Logic and openmindness
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My 2 cents for the discussion (even if I already wanted to be in bed :-[)
I'm far away from cEDH but I understand what flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flash) hulk combos can do, and the fish hulk really looks terifying, since you basicly need to have a stiffle on your hand on turn 1 and always have to keep U open in order to cast it, since the combo can kick off at turn 1 (more likely turn 2 and afterwards). So I would agree that we've come to a point where flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flash) really should banned.
The argument that flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flash) doesn't get played often outside the "competetive" part of the community is somewhat lame for me. from my personal experience this has 2 reasons:
1. many decks which would fit flashhulk combos aren't on a level of optimization where you can rely on this combo
2. there are enough "sane" people around at the kitchen tables that are still able to realzie that flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flash) hulk is a kinda straight route to victory, but not a enjoyable one.
The argument that the cEDH community could split from EDH and make their own format is also very difficult for me. On the first look, yes, it would solve the problem since they could make a seperate ban list and add problematic cards for the competetive sector to the ban list. but the big problem for me is a different one: where will be the line between those 2? you could still make a deck where most people would agree that it's more likely a cEDH deck but you declare it as EDH deck and vice versa. unless the deck contains a deck that is only allowed in (c)EDH, it will be pure subjective to decide where the deck belongs.
For Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Paradox+Engine) (that got mentioned some times): I personally don't like the ban. But as far as I've got it, they haven't banned it because it became a (potent) win con. They have banned it because people at the kitchen tables used PE in order to generate alot of long but finite turns without finishing off. I've seen 20-30 minute turns (with and without PE), so I can agree with the RC that waiting for this stuff can be very unfun, especially if it happends multiple times in a row.
So unless I'm wrong here (please correct me if I am), keep this in mind if you want to use the PE ban as argument.
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2. there are enough "sane" people around at the kitchen tables that are still able to realzie that flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Flash) hulk is a kinda straight route to victory, but not a enjoyable one.
This is almost exclusively the reason I don't play cEDH (not that anyone was wondering lol). I would think that a combo that is so potent, quick, and hard to deal with, people would get bored, but apparently not.
For Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=de&card=Paradox+Engine) (that got mentioned some times): I personally don't like the ban. But as far as I've got it, they haven't banned it because it became a (potent) win con. They have banned it because people at the kitchen tables used PE in order to generate alot of long but finite turns without finishing off. I've seen 20-30 minute turns (with and without PE), so I can agree with the RC that waiting for this stuff can be very unfun, especially if it happends multiple times in a row.
So unless I'm wrong here (please correct me if I am), keep this in mind if you want to use the PE ban as argument.
I think Judas made a very important distinction. All of you are discussing how Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) wasn't top tier in cEDH and how it didn't deserve a ban, but it's the perfect trap card for casual playgroups. It is very powerful and can generate lots of non-infinite mana. Like Judas said, this leads to long turns where one player is just slogging through lots of cards and mana without necessarily winning. That is unfun, and that is why the RC banned Engine. Not because of its presence in cEDH.
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Aaannnddd... We're done here for a bit.
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Some of you are probably wondering why this topic was locked out of the blue.
More than a few times throughout this thread, fights had broken out. Locking the topic would give everyone some time to cool down, and also prevented more fights from breaking out.
The straw that broke the camel (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Camel)'s back was a post made by Soren841. It was an offensive post against another user, after I had already given a few warnings throughout this thread. I managed to see it 20 minutes after it was initially posted, and promptly deleted it. The comment itself did not add to the discussion, it was just ad hominem.
As a result, Soren841 has been suspended for 24 hours.
I'll say it again: Do not make personal attacks against other people. That goes for everyone. Argument is a part of discussion, and is to be expected on a forum site. Insulting individuals, mocking groups of people, or making snide remarks are not necessary, and just cause unhealthy discussion.
The topic is now unlocked. I'm not entirely sure why, but cEDH topics tend to breed a lot of spite. You may continue discussing the potential bans/lack thereof, on the condition that you do so in a respectful manner, and do not intentionally say demeaning things.
I'm not giving any more warnings on this thread, there will just be consequences.
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I dunno if its just me, but I'm sorta tired of this whole discussion. We're just going in circles and I feel like nothing's getting done. For some reason, I think a lot of people here just aren't interested in anybody else's opinion (I'm not naming names), they just want to voice their own. Personally, my opinion has changed multiple times throughout this discussion, so I would love it to continue, I just don't know what else there is to say on my part at least. :P
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As a non-competitive player, I might have a skewed view of the debate, but I was under the impression that the whole point of Competitive game play was to come up with the best and most consistent winning strategy. Asking for players to auto-regulate and tone their decks down "because that's in the spirit of the format" seems to miss the point of what the term Competitive stands for...
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As a non-competitive player, I might have a skewed view of the debate, but I was under the impression that the whole point of Competitive game play was to come up with the best and most consistent winning strategy. Asking for players to auto-regulate and tone their decks down "because that's in the spirit of the format" seems to miss the point of what the term Competitive stands for...
You're right, and that's kind of where the issue arises.
For pretty much every other format, bans are put in place with competitive play at the forefront of the decision, but that is not the case for EDH.
EDH was born as a casual format, and those in charge (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Charge) want to keep it that way. They are not interested in explicitly supporting cEDH as a format and have regularly stated that self policing is their recommended solution. They ban with a view to the "spirit of the format". It's a unique format in that respect, and that doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon. Their decision to ban cards tends to lean towards cards that generate a state of the game that is not fun for every one involved (Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) was banned because it would often lead to games where players would take excessively long turns but still not close out the game. Iona was banned because it was easy to completely hose anyone who was in a mono coloured deck).
Now of course, not everyone will agree with these sentiments. Many people think Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) is fine. But the RC for EDH have even gone so far as to say that individual playgroups are welcome to ignore those bans if all participants are happy with it.
With all this in mind, I am personally of the opinion that it is good to have a ban list in place as this makes it a lot easier for players who go to events and regularly play with strangers etc., but the philosophy should be good enough for those who have regular play groups.
If you don't like flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) and think it should be banned, don't play it.
If there are other cards and combos that you think are ban worthy, don't play them.
If you want to play Coalition Victory (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Coalition+Victory) and every one else is cool with it, go nuts.
Ultimately, EDH belongs to those who created it and they get the final say. You wouldn't ask Picasso to paint realistic portraits. You wouldn't tell Robert Plant to stop wailing. When someone makes something for your consumption/enjoyment, you have the choice to consume and enjoy it or to leave it alone.
I personally think that the RC for EDH should be commended for committing to their original idea of EDH being casual and not being swayed by loud voices, while explicitly offering and even recommending self policing as an option for those who want to play it differently.
The only time the ban list matters is when people are playing with new pods or groups, most likely at an event or similar. For these situations, it is important to have a ban list. Given that the RC aren't budging on their ban philosophy (nor should they in my opinion), I think what the format really needs is an emphasis on communication. We are starting to see this more, especially with many of the biggest MTG and EDH content creators creating content aimed at helping people discuss deck power levels and the like, and I think more of this is only a good thing (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=A+Good+Thing).
I get why people like having rules in place and a ban list and all that good stuff. It stops people taking the piss. But ultimately we're all people looking to have fun with one of our hobbies. We should be able to take to each other to make sure we're all going to have fun in the same way.
Those are my thoughts anyway. Please all feel free to rip my arguments to shreds.
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No no, you make a good point.
You need ground rules for when you go out to an event night/tournament. This is the banlist. The cards I know I'm not allowed to use. Time Vault (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Time+Vault) is crazy powerful. Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) led to long turns. Worldfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Worldfire) is just irritating. Library of Alexandria (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Library+of+Alexandria) is...
Actually I'm not sure why that one's on there.
Rule zero however is for the social contract. Among friends, like-minded individuals. It does not work in large groups.
Case in point, there's an online cEDH tournament coming up through Cockatrice. Currently the opinions are split between "Great, this will show that Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) needs to be banned!" and "I'm not joining unless Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is banned". With Commander growing as a format, it has moved way outside of just small groups playing together, and the banlist is needed more than rule 0.
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Case in point, there's an online cEDH tournament coming up through Cockatrice. Currently the opinions are split between "Great, this will show that Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) needs to be banned!" and "I'm not joining unless Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) is banned". With Commander growing as a format, it has moved way outside of just small groups playing together, and the banlist is needed more than rule 0.
I think this is the issue though. The RC doesn't care about cEDH enough. It's not their vision for the format they created. They don't see flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) as an issue as it doesn't crop up in too many casual circles.
I see it as the equivalent of someone making you a delicious cake and you saying either
"Thank you very much, that looks delicious. I would love a piece"
or
"Thanks, but I'm not really a fan of [insert ingredient here] so I'll pass".
You wouldn't say to the baker "Actually I don't like [named ingredient] so can you go and make a new cake without it please".
Ultimately, the RC want EDH to be casual with an emphasis on self policing and that means that there is always potential for cards that aren't prevalent in casual circles warping that format for those who are choosing to play it differently. It's their cake and they will bake it however they choose. The rest of us are left to enjoy it or eat cookies instead. The end result is at the disposal of the creator.
All of that said, from a business perspective there is a strong argument for listening to your customers. Banning flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) would appease many people and piss off pretty much no one (apart from a few people who have no doubt foiled out a sick Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)/Hulk combo deck), and almost certainly not the casuals who the format is supposed to be for.
It seems to me that the RC have taken the stance of "If you want to play competitively, there are plenty of formats to do that in" and I kind of respect that.
I don't think this issue can be resolved without a fundamental change to the philosophy of EDH, and I don't think that will happen. They don't see it that the banlist is needed more than rule 0, and it's their call to make.
Also, I'm totally with you. I think Library is fine. But I'm not very good at Magic so I can't say that with any confidence that it can't be broken and I have a very strange idea of what fun is so I can't comment on it's ban from that perspective either.
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Wow okay. I was gone for like a day and so much happened.
Poor Soren. I usually enjoy reading what he has to say, but he can be aggressive.
Story time!!!!!!!!
So I have a Lord Windgrace (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Lord+Windgrace) deck. It sucks balls, but it doesnt do anything really oppressive. It just plays with lands and gets incremental value out of them. Well long ago, I ran death cloud (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Death+Cloud) in the deck because it could essentially be a one sided armageddon (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Armageddon). My lands deck could usually recover (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Recover) faster than everyone else from the sacing of lands. Well that card was not well liked. It quite literally got hated out of my deck. It didnt go this far, but it could've if I left it in the deck, ignoring my playgroup. They could've stopped inviting me had I refused to remove the card. So either the card or the player would get hated out of the playgroup. And I get it, it is no fun watching me take another 4 or 5 rounds to rebuild (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Rebuild) a board and finally be able to win while everyone else draws, maybe plays a land and passes.
Okay so my point is, why dont we hate Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) out? If someone is running flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk, they cannot sit in your pod. If they wanna build a deck that ramps to 7 mana to cast protean hulk (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Protean+Hulk) and then sacrifice it to something like culling the weak (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Culling+the+Weak) to start it, let them, just don't play with flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash).
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Well everyone here likes to quote the "spirit of the format" so I suppose I'll do it too :) hating out a card or strategy just because it's better than yours is 100% completely against the spirit of everything competitive. If it's oppressive ban it. If you refuse to play against certain cards or strategies you aren't playing cEDH. Same thing in ANY format.
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Well everyone here likes to quote the "spirit of the format" so I suppose I'll do it too :) hating out a card or strategy just because it's better than yours is 100% completely against the spirit of everything competitive. If it's oppressive ban it. If you refuse to play against certain cards or strategies you aren't playing cEDH. Same thing in ANY format.
I agree with this sentiment when it comes to competitive play, but the point is that the "spirit of the format" isn't that same as the "spirit of competitive play".
EDH is the format, cEDH is a niche bastardisation of that format that some people choose to play. As many people have said, yourself included, separating the two formats isn't what most of the community want. The guys in charge (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Charge) want EDH to remain casual. If people then choose to play that format in a much more competitive way, that is their choice, but if ban lists aren't reflective of their way of playing, that's just something they will have to accept or something that they will have to self police. If the cEDH community is calling for a ban, they have it within themselves to choose to not play it. This covers individual play groups as well as the wider community as a whole.
When it comes to EDH, and therefore cEDH, the ban list is there to stop games stagnating and not being fun. The RC have made this very clear, and said that people are welcome to govern themselves if they disagree with the list.
Personally I see no reason why this should not be sufficient. If the cEDH community want flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) banned, ban it "in house". If some of that community are fine with it and others aren't, play with people who are like minded.
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Yes the spirit of competition, which can and does apply to ANY format, EDH included. It's no more of a bastardization than competitive Legacy. Nobody can dictate how somebody plays a format, and the RC has a huge flaw in their mindset if they continue to try and control how we play EDH. There are no casual or competitive fornats. They're just formats, period. We choose how we play them.
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Yes the spirit of competition, which can and does apply to ANY format, EDH included. It's no more of a bastardization than competitive Legacy. Nobody can dictate how somebody plays a format, and the RC has a huge flaw in their mindset if they continue to try and control how we play EDH. There are no casual or competitive fornats. They're just formats, period. We choose how we play them.
You appear to have missed my point entirely. Obviously people can choose how to play each formats within their own circles. Any format can be played casually or competitively, but that's not just what we are talking about here.
We're talking about bans and restrictions, and whether or not certain cards should appear on that list. This affects the rules and regulations of the game, and so each decision has to be with an end goal in mind or a to maintain a certain dynamic. In the case of EDH, the competitive side of the format is not the focus, which is unique among MTG formats. Having the focus be on casual play is a choice they have made, and no matter how much you disagree with it, it's their format and their decision to make.
They have offered a suitable work around which is self policing. That's more than they had to do. They could easily have said "EDH is casual. These degenerate combos don't effect the casuals so we're going to ignore them" but they built the format with a philosophy that allows the flexibility for people to choose how they want to play.
The RC have made their vision for the format very clear and their willingness to stick with to their guns is not a bad thing. It is not a "huge flaw in their mindset" and they are not trying to "control how we play EDH". Literally the opposite is true. They are saying that everyone is welcome to play how they want, but as the developers of the format, they will continue to push the format in the direction they want to take it. It's their creation and they have the artistic liberty to do this.
If a band you liked made an album and they took their music in a direction that wasn't to your taste, you wouldn't tell them to change it. How they handle their creation is up to them, and it's the same here. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but equally you don't have to consume it if you don't like it.
Of course, from a business perspective, they would do well to listen to their customers, but cEDH is a relatively small part of what is MTG's fastest growing and arguably most popular format. They have done just fine aiming at the casuals, so their decision to continue to do so is no real surprise.
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Self policing is for casual players, it is not part of a competitive ruleset. Ban based on comp, casual can police themselves. It's easy logic. The RC most certainly IS trying to control how we play the game. Look at their bannings, their logic, or even just look at Sheldon. It's not hard to see that they don't like cEDH and they believe in "casual formats."
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Self policing is for casual players, it is not part of a competitive ruleset. Ban based on comp, casual can police themselves. It's easy logic.
It's easy logic for a competitive format, but EDH isn't.
The RC most certainly IS trying to control how we play the game. Look at their bannings, their logic, or even just look at Sheldon.
Personally, I disagree on this point. I think their willingness to allow self policing across the entire format shows that this is not the case. Ultimately, these guys created the format and should not be expected to change their vision of it to please others.
It's not hard to see that they don't like cEDH and they believe in "casual formats."
But what's wrong with that? Pretty much every other format in MTG has a competitive side. EDH came about with some friends who wanted to play it casually because they liked playing with all their old cards and hanging out for an evening. It gained popularity, but they wanted to keep their original view of their format the way they intended.
It got so much attention that it got official support. People started playing it hyper competitively and cEDH was born. In response to this they said "that's not really how we imagined it, but if that's how you want to do it, you go nuts", but they kept their rules and bans in line with their original vision for the format.
There is no competitive EDH scene in the same way there is for modern or standard or legacy. There are no global championships with big prizes and sanctioned play (outside of what independents decide to organise for themselves). You can't earn pro points for playing commander. No matter how competitively you play it with your peers, it is not a competitive format in the same way other formats are. You can tune your deck to the nines, but it doesn't mean anything, and probably never will.
So, with all of that, what is wrong with self policing at the competitive level?
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Self policing is for casual players, it is not part of a competitive ruleset. Ban based on comp, casual can police themselves. It's easy logic.
It's easy logic for a competitive format, but EDH isn't.
I feel like a broken record.. there are no competitive formats just like there are no casual formats. They're just formats, period, to be played HOWEVER WE WANT
The RC most certainly IS trying to control how we play the game. Look at their bannings, their logic, or even just look at Sheldon.
Personally, I disagree on this point. I think their willingness to allow self policing across the entire format shows that this is not the case. Ultimately, these guys created the format and should not be expected to change their vision of it to please others.
No one gives a fuck about their vision, they're not in my playgroup. You don't ban cards based on what you WANT. You ban them for being oppressive. If they want more cards banned because they don't LIKE them, they can use rule 0. They're a casual playgroup.
It's not hard to see that they don't like cEDH and they believe in "casual formats."
But what's wrong with that? Pretty much every other format in MTG has a competitive side. EDH came about with some friends who wanted to play it casually because they liked playing with all their old cards and hanging out for an evening. It gained popularity, but they wanted to keep their original view of their format the way they intended.
And you're able to play it casually, just like you can play ANY format casually. But the ONLY way to create a proper banlist is through competitive. You can tell me I'm wrong but the existence of this thread already proves me right.
The quotes are not happy with me. rip formatting
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"there are no competitive formats just like there are no casual formats"
When the creators of the game are sanctioning organised competitive play with significant prize money, but this only extends to certain formats, I would argue that there absolutely is a difference between the competitiveness of formats.
"No one gives a fuck about their vision"
They give a fuck about their vision, and it's their decision to make.
"You ban them for being oppressive"
They are banning based on what's oppressive, the difference is, how they are defining oppression (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Oppression) is different to how you would. Neither is wrong, it's just a different stance on the same point.
"But the ONLY way to create a proper banlist is through competitive"
This is demonstrably not true. EDH isn't competitive, but it has a ban list. It might not be one you personally agree with or support, but it exists.
"You can tell me I'm wrong but the existence of this thread already proves me right."
In what way does this thread "prove" you right?
I'm not about to tell you that you are wrong. It's your opinion, it can't be wrong or right.
This thread consists of many people who enjoy the same hobby, discussing one aspect of that hobby and it's pros and cons. There have been many different opinions expressed, but ultimately they are just that; opinions.
No one has been wrong or right. My opinion on the matter is different to yours, but it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. You are entitled to yours as much as I am mine.
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Their banlist is shit that's how it proves me right. And I know they give a fuck about their vision. That's why we have rule 0, because nobody else does. A format doesn't need money or a WOTC sanctioned format to be competitive. They don't control the playerbase.
People ARE right and wrong. You're wrong, and so is the RC. That's why so many people are fed up with their banlist.
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Haha OK dude. Whatever you say.
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To try to misdirect the convo before people get any more heated:
Anybody have any cards beside Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) that deserve a ban?
In particular, I know a couple people who want a Craterhoof Behemoth (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Craterhoof+Behemoth) ban, but I think it has too many requirements to fulfill to win the game.
What are the criteria for banning cards according to you people?
For me, it has to create a lot of outcry from casual players; it has to make gameplay uniform, boring, uninteresting, lock people out of the game, etc.
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Pretty much just Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). My main issue with the banlist is actually that most of it should be unbanned.
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I have to say, I do agree with Soren.
What's the point of the banlist if they don't ban cards that are oppressive? "Oh, if you don't like Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) just ban it in your playgroup." Why is that stance not applicable to every other card on the banlist? Why did THEY have to ban Paradox Engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine)* if all they had to do was wave their hand and declare that groups who don't like the card can just agree not to play it?
* [Can be replaced with any other card on the banlist...]
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Exactly, it just makes no sense. Ban for competitive, and Rule 0 for casual makes much more sense and leaves everybody happy.
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So currently the RC are handling bans with the view that people should be able to go to a GP or a CommandFest or their LGS, sit down at a table with complete strangers and everyone should be able to have fun. They ban cards that they believe will detract from this scenario. That's why they have a ban list despite the lack of sanctioned competitive play. I agree that rule 0 does undermine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Undermine) this somewhat, I just don't see it as that much of an issue. I can definitely see credit to the argument that rule 0 makes the ban list pointless if you're just going to house rule it anyway.
I'm sure we can all agree that this method of banning based on fun presents its own issues. It is a far from perfect system.
Furthermore, while I do think this is a system that has the potential to work, I also think the RC are doing a poor job of implementing it.
Their biggest issue in my opinion is a lack of willingness to listen to the community as a whole. It seems that their ego regularly gets in the way. They seem to adapt a "We are the Rules Committee and we do what we want" kind of attitude.
cEDH exists, and ignoring it because it goes against there philosophy for the format seems very petulant to me. I get that they want to keep it casual, but I don't see an issue with listening to those who play less casually and assessing their arguments. In their recent ban announcement they stated that there were no cards of interest that they would be looking at (the quote is "In terms of cards, there were no consensus threats to players’ enjoyment and we’re not making any changes at this time"). This to me shows a lack of interaction with the community as a whole.
On the subject of Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash), I think a ban would be fine. It sees very little play in more casual circles and is largely ruining one aspect of the format. Banning it would appease a lot of people and annoy few. Having a combo that is near impossible to interact with and can consistently be played very early in the game takes a lot of the fun out. It violates their own philosophy for the format as much as it does the competitive diversity.
I also agree that a lot of the ban list could comfortably be unbanned.
Ultimately, I think that the way they are handling the ban list currently is a breeding ground for contradiction. There are so many cards on that list that are banned because they allow degenerate combos but so many still exist. The RC needs to go one way or another. There are still many two card, game ending combos that are incredibly easy to put together. Lab Man is still a ludicrously easy win. I think they need to be firmly in one camp or the other.
"What are the criteria for banning cards according to you people?
For me, it has to create a lot of outcry from casual players; it has to make gameplay uniform, boring, uninteresting, lock people out of the game, etc."
Personally I think Lab Man and it's variants fall in to this category and I've heard a small amount of noise around these (though not so much recently). I don't think they are ban worthy, but they do make for boring, repetitive game play.
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I'm sure we can all agree that this method of banning based on fun presents its own issues. It is a far from perfect system.
Furthermore, while I do think this is a system that has the potential to work, I also think the RC are doing a poor job of implementing it.
Their biggest issue in my opinion is a lack of willingness to listen to the community as a whole. It seems that their ego regularly gets in the way. They seem to adapt a "We are the Rules Committee and we do what we want" kind of attitude.
Perfect summary.
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Well said CleanBelwas!
There's several cards currently on the banlist that I never heard anyone moan about at the time they were banned and there are cards that do somewhat similar things which are legal.
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They shouldn't be actively trying to "keep the format casual" just ban cards that are ACTUALLY oppressive (rant incoming on THAT) and let people play how THEY find it fun.
Now let's talk about data collection and bannings. How do you know a card is oppressive? When it's A) Dominating the meta by being a must-play (high share of the meta) or B) Has an extremely high winrate relative to the other decks. So obviously due to the nature of casual game -- A) Not optimal, so their card choices aren't really relevant to the discussion and B) you can't really collect data on friends sitting around the kitchen table -- you can ONLY collect relevant data from organized cEDH gameplay. Rant over before I give myself an aneurysm.
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The thing is, they're just a bit lazy about it all.
They want their bans to be for the good of the format.
I see no reason why they can't achieve a balance (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Balance) between the various levels while maintaining their philosophy.
All it would take is an acknowledgement that cEDH exists and a bit of effort and mindfulness on the part of the RC. They don't need to ban exclusively for one end or the other, but consider it as a whole.
If a card is warping the meta at one end and does nothing at the other, consider banning it. Talk to people. Assess the ramifications. Don't just ignore it.
It wouldn't take much to do, and it wouldn't be a break in philosophy. It just takes some actual interaction with the community.
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The only cards I'd consider keeping banned for casual are like Worldfire (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Worldfire)
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It seems I am the only person with actual stuff to do during the day.
@Soren841
You're saying there needs to be a strictly enforced ban list for there to be competitive play. I agree with this. However, I think CleanBelwas said it, there is no competition for EDH. Therefore it is not competitive. Every competition I've participated in, even outside of Magic, has had a prize for the winner, and any with a worthwhile prize have an entry fee. This doesnt exist for EDH, and here I am combing cEDH and EDH into EDH.
If you and your playgroup want to play the most optimized and efficient strategies to win the quickest, go for it. Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) fits that description. Quick, well optimized and efficient. If you dont like it, talk to your playgroup. There is no one who is saying you have to abide by this ban list to play in this tournament because the tournaments dont exist except what 3rd parties develop.
TLDR; there has to be a competition for it to be competitive. With rewards and risk, usually entry fee. That doesnt exist for EDH in general.
@GolgariFTW
What makes something ban worthy? I assume we are talking EDH because in something like modern, the requirement is (roughly) it cant win before turn 4.
I want to say that it just needs to be unfun. The ban list shouldn't exist and that people should just self regulate. Dont play if you arent having fun. At the same time though, most people dont like stax. It isnt broken or overpowered. It is sort of like a puzzle to solve, but most people dont like not being able to untap their lands, etc. I also feel that if you hate playing against stax, then dont play against it. Itll make you a better player I think, but dont do it if you arent having fun. There will be people like morganator or myself that encourage every type of strategy, even MLD, and there will be people that wont sit at a table if sundering titan (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Sundering+Titan) isnt banned. It let's people of similar goals within MTG to play together appropriately I think.
@Spinsane
Why did they HAVE to ban paradox engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine)? They didn't have to, and the argument you're trying to make can be easily countered by, run paradox engine (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Paradox+Engine) if your playgroup is cool with it.
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If they didn't have to it shouldn't have been banned (hint: it shouldn't have). And there doesn't have to be a formal sanctioned competition or a prize for it to be competitive. The banlist should be based solely on competitive EDH data. I would strongly encourage all casual playgroups to track their own data. What strategies are oppressive and what card enables them the most?
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So some of you may have already seen it, but Tolarian Community College posted a video with Ryan from Playing with Power discussing cEDH as a format, as well as many of the issues discussed in this thread.
Video can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCQcGDRlmYE
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the credibility of their arguments and reasoning, especially you guys who are active on the cEDH scene.
Do you think they did the format justice (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Justice)? Have your experiences been similar?
The highlight for me was a point the Prof made (paraphrased below):
"If you can ban Iona because of the unfun state it presents, then you can definitely justify a ban for Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). Even though cEDH is a small part of the format, it still sees more players than people playing Iona. More players are currently being effected by Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)/Hulk than were ever being effected by Iona".
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It's an hour long video. I'll pass.
I will however comment on this:
The highlight for me was a point the Prof made (paraphrased below):
"If you can ban Iona because of the unfun state it presents, then you can definitely justify a ban for Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash). Even though cEDH is a small part of the format, it still sees more players than people playing Iona. More players are currently being effected by Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)/Hulk than were ever being effected by Iona".
I've never thought of this before. Most everyone glazed over Iona getting banned because no one really played Iona. But flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) does see play in much larger numbers than Iona.
Truth is, there are a lot of cards that don't make sense on the banlist, based on the philosophy. The cards are banned/not banned because of what the rules committee wants, and not for any other justifiable reason.
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The part everyone cares about, flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) hulk talk, starts at 26:00
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So some of you may have already seen it, but Tolarian Community College posted a video with Ryan from Playing with Power discussing cEDH as a format, as well as many of the issues discussed in this thread.
Video can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCQcGDRlmYE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCQcGDRlmYE)
I do have to say, that if the people playing the top tier decks think that any particular card (right now, Flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash)) is can warp the environment, the RC should probably pay attention to that with respect to ban decisions.
I have a question for the cEDH players out there:
In this video, Ryan Street claims that cEDH decks should never be at the same table as casual decks. He does state that most cEDH players looking to play their cEDH deck would not want to sit down at a casual table. He does go on to say that it should never really happen. Do you all agree with his sentiment?
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Of course we agree. Pub stomping isn't cEDH
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I have found that some cedh decks can sit down with casual decks without being to powerful. However that comes down to the fact that certain cedh decks just can't deal with board refills as well as casual decks being as cedh is more about the stack than the battlefield so there are less wraths. It also comes down to how many cedh decks are at the table as well. Obviously you have to factor in tech cards my buddy runs a sidisi self mill that I have teched my casual shitty I win with your stuff teneb deck to and now he rarely wins against it.
However if you do not know what someone's casual deck is capable of you should never assume you cedh deck is fine to play without the table agreeing to you doing so.
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I've never thought of this before. Most everyone glazed over Iona getting banned because no one really played Iona. But flash (https://cards.deckstats.net/magiccard.php?utf8=1&lng=en&card=Flash) does see play in much larger numbers than Iona.
Truth is, there are a lot of cards that don't make sense on the banlist, based on the philosophy. The cards are banned/not banned because of what the rules committee wants, and not for any other justifiable reason.
This may be the best point of all.