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Topics - Aetherium Slinky

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
1
Hi,

The topic has been previously discussed here but since this is way into the later stages and a cry for help I'm making a new post. Feel free to browse the previous thread but keep new comments here!

In essence I've been chasing the white whale answer to the question:

"How many lands and ramp cards should my deck have?"

and I'm on my final stretch. I have a tool that generates recommendations. It's written in Python and not available for the public as of yet because I need someone to help me verify the logic and get feedback. I also have 40 pages of a research article written and would love to go over that with someone as well.

Prerequisites:
  • Must know Python and be somewhat familiar with GitHub
  • Must know mathematics and specifically probabilities
  • Communication would be over Discord (preferably over voice)

About the math behind the calculations:
  • Assumes the player wants to get to a point where they can cast two spells per turn
  • Assumes the player wants to ramp first, then play lands only until the required mana has been reached
  • Assumes all ramp cards are Arcane Signet or similar (costs 2, enters untapped, makes 1 mana)
  • Draw isn't accounted for at this stage

About the tool itself:
  • Takes in number of commanders, average mana value, mulligans and desired aggressivenes of ramping
  • Spits out a heatmap of recommendations where the highest probability is the optimum number of lands and ramp cards
  • It has a rudimentary GUI and I'm working on hosting it somewhere but currently it's only available as a (private) repo

Here's a sneak peek for you all to get you interested!


2
Hi everyone!

Some time ago I talked about forming a play group here on Deckstats. Nothing ever came out of it so I decided to make something come out of it, now, a year later.

Please join the official Deckstats Discord first: https://discord.gg/hUAHUrv - obviously not mandatory but I highly recommend since the LFG-server has only the bare minimum in terms of channels and features.

The unofficial "Deck-Smash" Discord can be joined through this link: https://discord.gg/sRXQChcZMx

We've provided you with some LFG-channels and a single general chat-channel as it is intended to serve as an extension only to the actual Deckstats Discord. We're currently supporting Spelltable/Spellbot, Cockatrice and a generic "other platforms" group. I will make more groups if it looks like they're needed. Ask me here on Deckstats or on Discord if you have any problems!



(Aetherium Slinky was previously known as MustaKotka. Nothing to worry about. The world isn't ending.)

3
General Magic / Puzzle 2: the Unnecessarily Complicated Edition
« on: January 19, 2023, 05:52:41 am »
This is a very late Commander/EDH game board state based on a game from last night albeit slightly modified. The solutions are probably going to be lengthy and there are probably some that I missed entirely but I'll entertain you with one.

The players are Albert (you), Bertha, Cecily, and Daniel.

The puzzle starts at your untap step.

Commanders:
Life totals:
  • Albert (you): 1
  • Bertha: 25
  • Cecily: 14
  • Daniel: 21

Cards in hand:
  • Albert (you): 21
  • Bertha: 5
  • Cecily: 3 (a land, a sorcery, and Dispel - these are known due to Gitaxian Probe)
  • Daniel: 7

Cards in library:
  • Albert (you): 0
  • Bertha: 55
  • Cecily: 68
  • Daniel: 72

Start by assuming the following about your opponents:
Your mana production on the battlefield for a total of (2x4)+1+2+1+1+2 = 15 mana:
Otherwise your board has the following cards:
Your hand is big (21 cards). It has the following cards:
Your board has 15 cards. Your hand has 21 cards. Your graveyard has lands, instants and sorceries for a combined total of 18 cards. The most relevant card is a Swan Song in your graveyard. You have 44 face-up cards in exile, one Praetor's Grasp'd Aetherise and that one foretold Tales of the Ancestors. (Yeah, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger is pretty devastating.)



I'll try to avoid direct linking in the spoiler. SPOILERS CONTAIN SOLUTIONS

Your first objective is to survive your beginning phase. Move to your upkeep.

Scenario 1:
Cast Teferi using an Is-land (3 left untapped) and Sol-Ring.
Cecily has now a choice: cast Aetherise or do nothing. They choose to tap out to cast Aetherise attempting lethal with the Rona trigger.
Cast High-Tide with the Mox.
Cast Stif-le using an Is-land (2 left untapped), float 2 blue mana.
Cast Fo-il targeting Aetherise (discard an Is-land and Howling-Mine).
Let the stack resolve.
Use Academy Ruin's ability (using the 2 floating blue) to put Howling-Mine on top of your library.
Cast Snap-back (exiling Jace from your hand), targeting Kami.
At this point you can safely move to your draw step since Cecily is tapped out and Rona is neutered, Kami isn't on the field anymore and you have a card in your library. Teferi was an insurance against Rona. It allows us to cast High-Tide and skip one potential Rona trigger we don't have a counter for.

Scenario 2:
Cast Teferi using an Is-land (3 left untapped) and Sol-Ring.
Cecily has now a choice: cast Aetherise or do nothing. They choose to do nothing (in order to save mana for Dis-pel).
Use Teferi's -3 ability to phase Rona out. Theoretically Cecily could now react by casting Aetherise in response but in that case we simply follow the steps above. After this point we can simply Comman-deer (exiling FoW and Rite) the Dis-pel which means we're basically free to do anything we want.
Cast High-Tide with the Mox.
Cast Serum Vis using an Is-land (2 left untapped), float 2 blue mana.
Cast Fo-il targeting Serum Vis (discard an Is-land and Howling-Mine).
Let the stack resolve.
Use Academy Ruin's ability (using the 2 floating blue) to put Howling-Mine on top of your library.
Cast Snap-back (exiling Jace from your hand), targeting Kami.
At this point you can safely move to your draw step since Cecily's Rona is neutered, Kami isn't on the field anymore and you have a card in your library.




Nice, you survived to your main phase. The following steps are the same regardless of whether Cecily has the Dis-pel or not - use your Comman-deer (exiling FoW and Rite) to gain control of it and make it point at Comman-deer to get rid of it.

Start anyway by playing an Is-land. You've now got 3 untapped Islands (3x3 mana), Metamorph copying Sol-Ring (2 mana), Thought-Vessel (1 mana) for a total of 12 available mana.

If you ended up with scenario 1:
Use Teferi's -3 to phase the Suture-Priest out.
Cast the Crawler (7 mana left).
Cast Echo (1 mana left).
Let the Sphinx do the work - i.e. you draw 7 anyway and when the opponents each draw 7 you may draw 2 for each card drawn for a maximum of 7 + 2x3x7 = 49 cards.

If you ended up with scenario 2:
Cast the Crawler (7 mana left).
Counter the trigger from Suture-Priest with Stif-le (6 mana left).
Cast Echo (0 mana left).
Let the Sphinx do the work - i.e. you draw 7 anyway and when the opponents each draw 7 you may draw 2 for each card drawn for a maximum of 7 + 2x3x7 = 49 cards.


Afterthought: there is actually simpler solution compared to mine. It uhh brute forces the whole thing. Mine is definitely more elephant.



I asked Cecily for a solution and they came up with the simpler solution I alluded to.

We also constructed a completely new winning line which is pretty darn cool:

It's mill. Step 1: Remove Rona
1) Cast Snap-back (exiling Jace) targeting Rona.
2) Cecily casts either Aetherise or Dis-pel. Cast Foil targeting Cecily's spell; discard an Is-land and Echo of Aeons. If Cecily holds back we can 3) simply cast Serum Vis as a placeholder spell to Foil. For later we can simply Comman-deer whenever Cecily decides to cast Dis-pel. It's all good as long as Rona is gone.
4) Tap an Is-land for UU. Cast Stif-le on the Rona trigger. (3 Islands remaining untapped)
5) Use the remaining U for High-Tide.

Step 2: Get to the Draw
6) Cast Echo of Aeons by tapping an Is-land (2 remaining untapped). Before resolving you should have: 0 cards in library, 23 cards in the graveyard, 15 cards in hand, 1 card on the stack, and 1 new face-up exiled card: Jace. For the purposes of Echo this totals 38 cards.
7) Proceed to draw 7 (Echo) + 28 (Sphinx) cards leaving 3 cards in the library. If you had to use Comman-deer you only draw 7+26 cards.
8.) Proceed to the draw step. You should have 35 or 37 cards in hand and 1 in the library after drawing. We'll assume the worse number, 35.

Step 3: So you refreshed everyone's library and now you're going to mill them?
9) Play an Is-land (3 untapped, 1 tapped). For reference we've also got 2 untapped Sol Rings, Vessel, Mox, Academy Ruin, and Coliseum (useless at 1 life). At worst 34 cards remaining in hand.
10) If High-Tide is the last card in your library go ahead and tap Mox for U to cycle the Sandbar to get it back. If not, continue. At worst 34 cards remaining in hand.
11) Cast High-Tide using an Is-land (2 untapped remaining). Float UU. At worst 33 cards remaining in hand.
12) Cast the foretold Tales. Opponents draw to 33 cards.
13) Cast the Folio by tapping an Is-land (1 untapped remaining) and the Vessel. Float UUU.
14) Cast the Impersonator by tapping a Sol-Ring and using the floating mana; still floating U. Have Impersonator enter as a second Folio.
15) Activate both Folios by tapping an Is-land (0 untapped remaining) for UUUU (+U from floating earlier) and tapping Academy Ruin for C.
16) It is glorious but our opponents had 33 cards in hand and they mill 2x33 cards totaling 99 cards which ensures they're completely out of cards. Pass the turn!

4
Deckstats Feedback / Incorrect colour identity
« on: November 03, 2022, 02:05:56 am »
https://nitter.vegan.im.it/WotC_Matt/status/1587853396060803074#m

Quote
Hal Ray
@TalonDrone
Oct 4
@WotC_Matt Will The Mightstone and Weakstone have a colorless or a white/blue color identity?  Not sure if the combined back face of the meld (Urza) would influence the stones' color identity.  It was a nonissue last time for all the melds were colorless on the back.

Matt Tabak
@WotC_Matt
Oct 5
I believe the answer we don’t know yet (or at least I don’t know yet). @Dunkatog is working on it with the CRC. #WotCstaff

Dani Ossa
@JudgeOssa
Nov 1
Almost a moth since this, can you give us some info about that? :D

Matt Tabak
@WotC_Matt
7h
Replying to @JudgeOssa @TalonDrone @Dunkatog
Good idea poking us. Easy to forget about threads. Sorry we did so here. Each card on a meld pair has the color identity of its front. So TMaW = colorless, Phyrexian Dragon Engine = red, and so on. #WotCstaff
Nov 2, 2022 · 5:05 PM UTC · Twitter for iPhone

Currently The Mightstone and Weakstone is displayed as colour identity UW in the deckbuilder.
Example: https://deckstats.net/decks/93006/2333577-assemble-the-modules-kozilek-b#show__stats

5
Commander Discussion / Do you play Compost?
« on: October 24, 2022, 07:54:52 am »
Compost. It's a card. I wrote a lengthy post on Reddit about it but let's recap here without the math details.

This concerns top 100 EDHrec commanders and a bunch of other silly assumptions:
  • You're 93% likely to face a pod where at least one opponent has black in their colour identity.
  • In a very unrealistic averaged out game Compost (on average) draws about 4 cards.
Knowing the above: do you think Compost is worth playing even if it's rarely a completely dead card?

6
Off-Topic / How old are we?
« on: September 12, 2022, 10:58:29 am »
How old are you? I feel like Magic used to be a thing for 80s and 90s kids so a lot of players are in their 30s currently. With the rise of EDH I think there are younger people in the community, too, so I'm curious to hear how old we are. Additionally you may disclose when you started to play Magic, what your first format was, and what you play these days!



OP starts: I'm 30ish, started playing kitchen table Magic around Shadowmoor, had a longer break and came back to Magic when Tiny Leaders was a hot format and moved onto EDH when Tiny Leaders stopped being a thing.

7
Commander Discussion / Regular Deckstats playgroup?
« on: June 19, 2022, 01:42:50 pm »
Hiya dear people of Deckstats!

Inspired by Morg's post: you're all such fantastic people that I was wondering if we could make a semi-regular group and gather together to play Magic online. I had the idea we could gather together on a particular weekday for example.

Looks like Spelltable, Cockatrice and Untap are the most popular choices. We could use the Deckstats Discord to communicate.

Who's interested?

8
Deckstats Feedback / A subforum for trading, selling and buying
« on: March 15, 2022, 01:05:56 pm »
There's currently a "deck help" thread that wants to sell a deck. It doesn't really belong anywhere on the forum. Any chance we could have a subforum for trading, selling and buying?

Thread in question: https://deckstats.net/forum/index.php/topic,65487.0.html



The heading could be "Marketplace" and subsubforums labelled "Trading", "Selling", and "Buying". Nothing fancy. It probably won't see much use but it'd be a home for threads like that.

Unless there are legal issues you want to avoid in which case I totally understand why such a thing does not exist.

9
I'm looking for some real world data regarding opening hands in terms of lands and ramp spells. Soren841, Morganator2.0 and I have a good idea of what to expect already but that won't replace real world data on what people actually prefer. Remember that this is for cEDH and cEDH only, not your average regular deck.

Describe the opening hands you'd accept as keepable in as much detail as possible! You can do that qualitatively (i.e. describe the general feel of a hand you'd like to see) or quantitatively (i.e. outline the actual numbers of lands and different kinds of ramp spells). We're currently using the following categories:
  • lands
  • ramp spells at mana value 0
  • ramp spells at mana value 1 or 2.
Feel free to deviate from these categories, we/I are open to all kinds of descriptions.

Thanks in advance!

10
I have been crunching numbers for the last few days and I wanted to show you some intermediate results. Here's the list of assumptions:
  • A deck contains one commander and 99 cards. This calculation ignores partners for now.
  • A hand or a mulligan is always 7 cards (London mulligan) where you put n-1 cards to the bottom of the library after the first free mulligan where n is the number of mulligans you've taken.
  • The calculations do not take into account any additional draws or draw spells. This is a weakness but we justify this by the fact that you need to choose to keep the hand or mulligan before you see the first draw of the game. Hence you cannot rely on that draw being a land or a ramp spell, for example. Additionally early turn draw spells are scarce, usually don't draw many cards or do not draw cards unconditionally.
  • Lands can be any lands although if you use this chart to find the mana available on a specific turn you'll want to assume your final land enters untapped.
  • A ramp spell has the mana value 0, 1, or 2. Not exactly relevant for the calculations themselves but helps explain why we defined a keepable hand the way we did.
  • A keepable hand consists of one of the following combinations: 2 lands and 1 ramp spell, 2 lands and 2 ramp spells, 3 lands, or 3 lands and 1 ramp spell. We discarded the 4 land hand as an opening hand for two reasons: it skews the results towards lands way too much and I bet keeping a 4 land hand is not ideal if you need to mulligan to 5 cards. Similarly this calculation does not consider the possibility of a single land that has for example a Sol Ring and a mana value 2 ramp spell (for example Arcane Signet) because the math would be really complicated and such a hand is still a risky hand.
  • We take 3 mulligans maximum (i.e. you see four hands: opening hand, the free mulligan and two regular mulligans) because 5 cards is still usually a keepable hand, a nice mixture of lands, ramp spells and other cards. Subsequent mulligans are somewhat rare.
The number of lands is in the leftmost column and the number of ramp spells is the top row. The value in the cell is the probability of drawing a keepable hand within three mulligans (down to 5 cards).

How to read the chart:
  • Example 1: if your deck has 35 lands and 9 ramp spells you take "35" from the lands column and follow that horizontally until you get to "9" on the top row. The value in the cell reads 88.2% which is your probability of finding a keepable hand within three mulligans.
  • Example 2: your deck has 38 lands and you want to find the ideal number of ramp spells in order to maximise your chance of a good opening hand in three mulligans. You take "38" from the land column and follow that horizontally until you find the cell with the highest value on that row. Now look up the number of ramp spells from the top row. There are two equal probabilities: 88.9% - one at 11 ramp spells and the adjacent at 12 ramp spells.
  • Example 3: you have no idea what you're doing. You just want to know what is the ideal composition of lands and ramp. First find the highest value in the chart (for your convenience I've highlighted it in orange) and then look up the number of lands from the left and number of ramp spells from the top. The highest probability of a good hand in the chart is 89.1% at 36 lands and 12 ramp spells.
  • Example 4: you're happy if you get screwed in 12.5% of the games (one in eight) you play and you want to know what is the bare minimum number of lands and ramp you should have. You should assume that the number of ramp spells is the more important factor here because that propels you ahead of curve. Lands would not. You prioritise the number of ramp spells and try to find a cell with a chance of 100-12.5=87.5 with the highest number of ramp spells and minimum number of lands. There's a pretty good match at 31 lands and 16 ramp spells (with a probability of 87.6%) so you pick that.

There are lots of rules of thumb for these kind of calculations. I've seen people say "start with 40 lands and subtract two for each ramp spell you have" or "have a total of 50 mana sources in the deck" and so forth. None of these are really true but they're somewhat good approximations for small deviations from 36 lands and 12 ramp spells which was the ideal composition.

Some additional math that is not shown in the chart: if your commander is mana value 4 and you want to maximise the chance of having exactly 1 ramp spell in your hand (that would put you to 4 mana on turn 3) your best bet is to run 14 ramp spells. Following that thought your best number of lands is then going to be 35 if we read the chart.

More math not on the chart: if you think 4 lands is a good opening hand you should optimally play 0 ramp spells and 49 lands. This probably proves that a 4 land hand is not a keepable hand unless it's an emergency and you've had to mulligan way down. Or at least it's not worth optimising for anyway.



How is it all done? Here's the math bit. Normally figuring out a probability like this uses something called a hypergeometric distribution. Here's a calculator you can use. It's a mathematical tool that takes in (in MtG terms) the number of cards in the deck, the size of your sample, e.g. opening hand (you can plug in any number of draws you want), how many of that card is in your deck and finally how many cards of that kind you want in your sample. This tool always assumes that your deck is divided into two mutually exclusive groups: cards of type A (e.g. lands) and cards of type B (e.g. nonlands). You cannot have "lands, ramp and the rest" as your three categories because this tool does not understand three categories.

The trick is something called "multivariate hypergeometric distribution" where you can plug in many variables. As far as I can tell there aren't any good online calculators for this. However there is a formula that we can use: in short we take the probability of finding lands and multiply that by the probability of also finding ramp and the probability of also finding other cards and divide the entire thing by the total number of possible hands. This formula takes into account the cases (hands) where all conditions are met. Our chart takes into account the chance of drawing 2 lands and 1 ramp spell, 2 lands and 2 ramp spells, 3 lands, or 3 lands and 1 ramp spell for a total of 4 categories. Each category consists of multiplication (X lands and Y ramp spells and Z other spells) because we want to find hands that fulfill the criteria but we sum up the chance of each category together because we're fine with any one of the categories. This way we get the total chance of finding a good hand.

For the mulligan part the math is surprisingly easy. We take the chance of not finding a good hand. For the opening hand it's just 100-(the chance of finding a good hand). For the first mulligan we assume that we fail the opening hand and the mulligan, too. This means we take the chance of not finding a good hand and multiply it by itself since each mulligan is always 7 cards and we shuffle the deck in between so the two events are independent of each other. If we subtract that chance from 100 we get the chance of finding a good hand in either the opening hand or the mulligan. Thank the London mulligan for being so simple.

Questions? Thoughts? Did I make a mistake? What kind of things would you like me to figure out next? Anything is possible. I'm planning on making this into a primer or get it pinned as a guide so any feedback is welcome and appreciated.



Credits to vaasa as well for helping me figure out a good portion of the math.

11
Off-Topic / Custom sleeve designs - opinions?
« on: February 03, 2022, 05:58:10 pm »
I'm looking to buy some custom art Dragon Shield sleeves. These sleeves are for the Kami of the Crescent Moon deck I have. Since I don't know which version Deckstats will conjure I've attached a picture of the card for your convenience. Basically I have two options:
  • The Death Star design with the "Ceci n'est pas une lune" text. Pros: it's funny and combines a lot of cool references. Cons: it's a joke and there's text. Is this something I will want to stare at for years to come?
  • The crescent Moon design with no text. Pros: colour matches with the Kami card, the Moon is realistic and crescent like the name implies. Cons: it's slightly boring. I consider this to be the safer choice because it's more neutral.
I can't pick one. Ultimately the decision is mine but I'd like to hear your opinions and suggestions. Haven't set anything in stone yet so I can still experiment with further designs should good ideas come up.

Also there's no guarantee they'll accept either design considering the album art is copyrighted. Then again I have edited them heavily so I think they should somewhat count as "derivative art" which is allowed.

Help me, Deckstats. You're my only hope.

12
Commander Discussion / Do you hate combo decks?
« on: January 31, 2022, 12:52:24 pm »
This divides opinions. Some people love brewing and playing combos, some hate them with a passion. There don't seem to be too many people in between these two extremes.

Do you hate combo decks? If so, why? If not, why?

13
You've got Cockatrice, Spelltable, untap.in, xmage, MTGO... Then there are many Discords that provide the chance to look for a pod. People who do this keep saying they've had miserable experiences with power imbalance and/or rude behaviour.

What are your experiences? I'd like to hear both positive and negative experiences to get a clearer picture of what's going on. (Obviously the ones who have had bad experiences are the most vocal ones.)

Mention the community through which you've searched for pods or just say random if you join open lobbies without any community behind it. (Don't link them, this isn't an ad thread.) Also, do you use Discord for communication or the in-app chat box?



I sometimes play on Cockatrice with random people and I've had mostly positive experiences even though I've joined games straight through the platform and haven't bothered with a matchmaking community. The trick is to make your own room and describe the game you want as accurately as possible in the room name. And then have the pregame talk.

14
Commander Discussion / Your favourite sans-green ramp?
« on: January 11, 2022, 03:48:31 pm »
What are some of your favourite ramp pieces in nongreen decks, mainly the monocoloured ones? Multicolour decks have access to Talismans and Signets so it's sort of easy to fix the mana that way but do you have something else you like playing? Is it all permanent based or do you use rituals as well?



Most of my decks play the usual Talismans and Signets but I have a monoblue Kami of the Crescent Moon deck that obviously can't do that. It plays other cards: High Tide, Extraplanar Lens, Caged Sun and Gauntlet of Power to double the available mana. It also draws a lot so Terrain Generator has proved to be an effective form of ramp.

15
What's the probability in an EDH deck - taking mulligans into account - for having all three Urza's lands in play with no extra draw or tutoring by turn 3?

A hypergeometric calculator can only spit out numbers for probabilities that don't take mulligans into account. I tried using Excel for this, manually calculating the distribution after each mulligan and my numbers seemed somewhat reasonable when calculating the odds of drawing all the lands in my opening hand.

As soon as I started drawing extra cards things got weird and I started getting higher probabilities for drawing cards one by one than I did when I was drawing them in bunches (=the opening hand). My approach was to calculate the negative event three times and multiply those to get the chance for drawing any other card than one of the lands. I have absolutely no idea what went wrong and couldn't get the results I wanted.

Furthermore, is it reasonable to make the assumption that we first draw 7, mulligan to oblivion and then draw 3? Is it the same as drawing a card three times statistics wise? By my logic it should be the same thing but I kept getting weird results.

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