Kaladesh New Card Discussion

[Mnemosyne]

How is having 3 different nissas and Chandra's gonna work? Also the Nissa cards are a little lackluster for me

What do you mean by 3 Nissa and Chandra? You mean the two released in the Starter Decks, the two released as a part of the Kaladesh Set and the Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and Chandra, Flamecaller from the Oath of the Gatewatch Set?

There is a superfriends deck, using Deploy the Gatewatch and that's a thing. It uses planeswalkers as control. I mean. I wouldn't necessarily use both or the others from the Standard Legal block in one deck... I am sure people could experiment, and whether or not it would work is dependent on who you play and what they play, no?

I would agree with you, the Nissa from the Starter Set is a little lacklustre, yes. However, think about Nissa, Vital Force for a second. As Jabilac mentioned her (+1) is a threat, a 5/5 land with haste, it allows you to un-tap a land, and then the creature stays on the field until your next turn, so you can use it as a blocker.
The (-3) is great in a delirium deck, or if someone has used a kill spell that hasn't exiled the target creature. Murder is a popular removal spell, atm.
And finally, the (-6) which, just think about it. Nissa is a 5m/5l in your next turn she ultimates (if you decide to -6)... ONLY 1 TURN! Which means that you get to draw an extra card continuously, as long as you have a land to play, which means that it allows you to keep your hand fresh, and increases your potential to find answers to your opponents actions.

I think this card is great, and in a ramp deck with landfall, it would potential be lethal. 

Btw guys, Chandra, Torch of Defiance has increased in value, she is now around ($40). Nissa, Vital Force is cheaper than Saheeli Rai, strangely. I don't rate Saheeli Rai, because of her lack of ability to defend herself or be a great threat.

[TheWakaEmu117]

How is having 3 different nissas and Chandra's gonna work? Also the Nissa cards are a little lackluster for me

What do you mean by 3 Nissa and Chandra? You mean the two released in the Starter Decks, the two released as a part of the Kaladesh Set and the Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and Chandra, Flamecaller from the Oath of the Gatewatch Set?

There is a superfriends deck, using Deploy the Gatewatch and that's a thing. It uses planeswalkers as control. I mean. I wouldn't necessarily use both or the others from the Standard Legal block in one deck... I am sure people could experiment, and whether or not it would work is dependent on who you play and what they play, no?

I would agree with you, the Nissa from the Starter Set is a little lacklustre, yes. However, think about Nissa, Vital Force for a second. As Jabilac mentioned her (+1) is a threat, a 5/5 land with haste, it allows you to un-tap a land, and then the creature stays on the field until your next turn, so you can use it as a blocker.
The (-3) is great in a delirium deck, or if someone has used a kill spell that hasn't exiled the target creature. Murder is a popular removal spell, atm.
And finally, the (-6) which, just think about it. Nissa is a 5m/5l in your next turn she ultimates (if you decide to -6)... ONLY 1 TURN! Which means that you get to draw an extra card continuously, as long as you have a land to play, which means that it allows you to keep your hand fresh, and increases your potential to find answers to your opponents actions.

I think this card is great, and in a ramp deck with landfall, it would potential be lethal. 

Btw guys, Chandra, Torch of Defiance has increased in value, she is now around ($40). Nissa, Vital Force is cheaper than Saheeli Rai, strangely. I don't rate Saheeli Rai, because of her lack of ability to defend herself or be a great threat.

Okay cool I can see how Nissa, Vital force could be good but I am still unsure but I agree even in the super friends deck the 2 started deck walkers aren't great I am excited to see how Vital Force and Torch of Defiance play.

[robort]

Isn't some of the planeswalkers going to be in the duel decks? 

You can only get those certain types of planewalkers in those decks. They aren't supposed to be overpowering but they will be only obtainable by buying the duel decks. I am not sure but that is what I heard for the rumor

[robort]

This is going to be busted Panharmonicon with Thalia's Lieutenant and Hanweir Garrison. Thalia is going to become a 6/6 on turn 4. Thalia is going to be out of reach on a lot of removal by then.

[Jabilac]

2 new spoilers for today.  1 was dropped yesterday after my post



Paradoxical Outcome could be used for a variety of things like saving a permanent, or several, from removal or get a second use out of ETB effects all while drawing cards.

Looks like we are going to get the full set of Gearhulks.  We have already seen three Torrential Gearhulk, Verdurous Gearhulk, and Cataclysmic Gearhulk. All of those have decent ETB effects and with Panharmonicon in the works things might start getting crazy.

[Jabilac]

New Spoilers:



Aetherflux Reservior seems like a fit in Soul Sisters as an alternate Win Con.

I like Glassblower's Puzzleknot the most out of the Puzzleknots but Woodweaver's Puzzleknot looks like it will fit in nicely with green's strategy after seeing Bristling Hydra along with Longtusk Cub.

Almost done with the Gearhulk Series.  Noxious Gearhulk is like an upgraded Shriekmaw with no Evoke option, less restrictions, and lifegain stapled on.  Menace will help you close out a game faster but it is only at 4 toughness so its open for quite a bit of removal in standard Alchemist's Greeting, Collective Defiance, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Lightning Axe, Grasp of Darkness, ect.

[Mnemosyne]

New Spoilers:

Aetherflux Reservior seems like a fit in Soul Sisters as an alternate Win Con.

I like Glassblower's Puzzleknot the most out of the Puzzleknots but Woodweaver's Puzzleknot looks like it will fit in nicely with green's strategy after seeing Bristling Hydra along with Longtusk Cub.

Almost done with the Gearhulk Series.  Noxious Gearhulk is like an upgraded Shriekmaw with no Evoke option, less restrictions, and lifegain stapled on.  Menace will help you close out a game faster but it is only at 4 toughness so its open for quite a bit of removal in standard Alchemist's Greeting, Collective Defiance, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Lightning Axe, Grasp of Darkness, ect.

Me: "Man, is this set even legal?"
Wotc: " Yeh it is... LOL jk! Soz, it's actually all banned!"

I know it isn't but still... Aetherflux Reservoir is a nice win condition, things like Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet are great life ramp cards, with a planeswalker like Sorin, Grim Nemesis or Nissa, Voice of Zendikar... Urgh, it's sickening.

A nice energy combo, which I can see happening with a counter one, will make Bristling Hydra disgustingly good. Since it isn't a mana activated ability it is a reliable way to gain counters, as well as giving it hexproof? That's black done now that Languish is going. unless you use something like Transgress the Mind?

Noxious Gearhulk has menace and an ETB ability? WTF? flicker this and you can extinguish someone's board state with something like Flaying Tendrils and gain life... With Aetherflux Reservoir...This makes me cry...

Even though it has (4T) you would need to cast things like Grasp of Darkness and Lightning Axe in response to Noxious Gearhulk ETB so it goes on the stack and prevents its destruction-life-gain ability trigger. One free kill, otherwise... If you used a flicker spell on it, you would protect it from sorcery spells like Collective Defiance.

[Mnemosyne]

This is going to be busted Panharmonicon with Thalia's Lieutenant and Hanweir Garrison. Thalia is going to become a 6/6 on turn 4. Thalia is going to be out of reach on a lot of removal by then.

Yup, Thalia's Lieutenant is going to be a pimped up version of Managorger Hydra... I am interested to see if the Pro-players play Panharmonicon in Standard tournaments, I mean, recently, I haven't seen permanent Enchantments or Artefacts being run, unless it gives a card advantage, like an Oath of Nissa or in a Return Deck that runs off landfall triggers.

I mean the only thing I can see being an annoyance is artefact hate, and I haven't seen any yet! That, and Reflector Mage or Stasis Snare, which would remove the counters, but that's only temporary.

[Mnemosyne]

Isn't some of the planeswalkers going to be in the duel decks? 

You can only get those certain types of planewalkers in those decks. They aren't supposed to be overpowering but they will be only obtainable by buying the duel decks. I am not sure but that is what I heard for the rumor

Yeh! That's right! They just released Ob Nixilis Reignited, vs Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and I like the new art for Nissa, but they are from the Zendikar Block, so I am not sure what will be released next. Maybe from the Innistrad Block?

They released the two planeswalkers (Chandra and Nissa) that are different from the Kaladesh Set for the Starter Deck, maybe because they didn't want to dilute the price of the amazingly expensive Chandra, Torch of Defiance.

[Mnemosyne]

Okay cool I can see how Nissa, Vital force could be good but I am still unsure but I agree even in the super friends deck the 2 started deck walkers aren't great I am excited to see how Vital Force and Torch of Defiance play.

I'm with you, dude! If only I could justify spending $160 to buy a playset of Chandra, Torch of Defiance...

[Jabilac]

Even though it has (4T) you would need to cast things like Grasp of Darkness and Lightning Axe in response to Noxious Gearhulk ETB so it goes on the stack and prevents its destruction-life-gain ability trigger. One free kill, otherwise... If you used a flicker spell on it, you would protect it from sorcery spells like Collective Defiance.

This wouldn't even work.  Even if you removed Noxious Gearhulk as soon as it entered the battlefield the trigger would have already happened and your opponent would be able to destroy a creature and gain life if that creature is destroyed.

[Mnemosyne]

Even though it has (4T) you would need to cast things like Grasp of Darkness and Lightning Axe in response to Noxious Gearhulk ETB so it goes on the stack and prevents its destruction-life-gain ability trigger. One free kill, otherwise... If you used a flicker spell on it, you would protect it from sorcery spells like Collective Defiance.

This wouldn't even work.  Even if you removed Noxious Gearhulk as soon as it entered the battlefield the trigger would have already happened and your opponent would be able to destroy a creature and gain life if that creature is destroyed.

I understand what you mean Jabilac, but it would, the instant triggers before the ETB ability. Remember when I was unsure about the ruling for Panharmonicon, the instant is cast in response to your opponent casting Noxious Gearhulk, the instant is on top of the stack, and resolves before the ETB ability, as the card enters, and then the ETB ability triggers. I had the same query when I played Archangel Avacyn, in a tournament and my opponent played Ultimate Price in response. Because it is an instant, it triggered before Archangel Avacyn (When Avacyn ETB until end of turn, creatures you control gain indestructible.)

[keagster]

It still entered the battlefield, so the trigger still goes off, giving all your creatures indestructible after avacyn dies...

[Jabilac]

Even though it has (4T) you would need to cast things like Grasp of Darkness and Lightning Axe in response to Noxious Gearhulk ETB so it goes on the stack and prevents its destruction-life-gain ability trigger. One free kill, otherwise... If you used a flicker spell on it, you would protect it from sorcery spells like Collective Defiance.

This wouldn't even work.  Even if you removed Noxious Gearhulk as soon as it entered the battlefield the trigger would have already happened and your opponent would be able to destroy a creature and gain life if that creature is destroyed.

I understand what you mean Jabilac, but it would, the instant triggers before the ETB ability. Remember when I was unsure about the ruling for Panharmonicon, the instant is cast in response to your opponent casting Noxious Gearhulk, the instant is on top of the stack, and resolves before the ETB ability, as the card enters, and then the ETB ability triggers. I had the same query when I played Archangel Avacyn, in a tournament and my opponent played Ultimate Price in response. Because it is an instant, it triggered before Archangel Avacyn (When Avacyn ETB until end of turn, creatures you control gain indestructible.)

You can not cast Ultimate Price with Noxious Gearhulk on the stack and have Ultimate Price target Noxious Gearhulk.  Noxious Gearhulk is a spell while it is on the stack so it can only be the target of spells that target spells like Mana Leak or Horribly Awry.  If you want to remove Noxious Gearhulk after it has entered the battlefield that is fine but the ETB trigger still goes off and resolves.  The trigger does not require Noxious Gearhulk to be on the battlefield to resolve.

In your case Archangel Avacyn ETB trigger had yet to resolve so your creatures were not indestructible until after the trigger resolves.

[Mnemosyne]

It still entered the battlefield, so the trigger still goes off, giving all your creatures indestructible after avacyn dies...

112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source.

Yes, that makes sense... okay, Jabilac, that makes it more horrible.