What do you guys tutor for?

[Red_Wyrm]

Okay, so combos are frowned upon in my playgroup unless its like a four card infinite combo that you didn't even realize was in the deck. Not too sure why. In fact my thinking along with two other people in my 5 people playgroup is that he you combo out, okay now we can start a new game. However we avoid them because the other two people say that it isn't fun and in the spirit of MTG. I'll stop now before I rant.

So excluding combo pieces, what do you guys use a demonic tutor for? Do you use it on turn 2 if you have nothing better to do so you can go and get that Bolas's Citadel and wreck havoc? I noticed in my The Locust God deck that i tutor the most for Alhammarats Archive because it is the best way to rebuild my hand since most of my wheel effects discard and draw that many, so I go down a card every time I cast a spell. Also it makes my dream halls and Mind over Matter better because I have cards to pitch to them.

In my Thraximundar (disguised nicol bolas tribal) deck I usually go to get grave titan since it is a value card. I mean one swing with it and I've got a board state. Plus no one wants to block a death toucher. And I've noticed in my playgroup, certain things are only removed if they are either winning you the game like Felidar Sovereign, or hurting your opponents like Wound Reflection or something. So my grave titan, which is a powerful card for sure, usually stays for a few swings. It'll get removed for the 6 damage, not the 2/2 zombies.

In my Sen triplets deck (which admittedly has too much control) I usually hold it in my hand until I need a specific answer to something.

My Lord Windgrace deck runs demonic tutor and Sidisi (the black one), but I never know what to tutor for, it changes from game to game.

So as you can see my uses vary for my tutors. Am i doing anything blatantly wrong? What do you guys tutor for? Again please not infinite combo pieces.

[Judaspriester]

Well, the obvious choice for tutors are combo pieces, at least if your deck is designed around some win combos.

But besides  that, I'll do it similar than you with Windgrace. Usually I decide from game to game when to use it, and what to search. Usually I want to react on the current board state. Get a solution for a given problem, or get something that gives me an (or secured my) advantage.

[robort]

I don't really use tutors. Not that I don't believe in them but I don't use them. First of all it is because of affordability. Not that I couldn't get the expensive tutors but I like making sure my decks constantly function all on it's own.

I do use a tutor in my life/gain/drain deck and it has been said to find a combo piece and that is Diabolic Intent to usually get Exquisite Blood. But I do have in my lands matter deck that has 4 cards that search for lands.

My personal preference is to have a goal but to reach that goal in many different ways. I like diversity and I get bored with the same repeativeness. That is why I never almost play the same deck twice unless it is a new deck that I am playtesting. But that is just me and if you use tutors then by all means use them because they do exactly what they are supposed to and that is go get a certain card.

[WWolfe]

Usually I use my tutors to search up answers for boardstates that don't favor my decks line of play in the decks that even have tutors. I don't run many myself.

[Marshstepper78]

I generally use tutors to get answers to problems except in Selenia, Dark Angel, which is more of a combo deck, so I end up getting a combo piece.

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, who is largely against tutors on the grounds that it is contrary to the spirit of the Commander format, and I'm tempted to take some tutors out to see just how necessary they are. I think aggressive card draw could be superior to a tutor in your average deck, unless your meta consists of competitive combo decks out to win by turn 4.

[Soren841]

Card draw is objectively worse.. and anyone who sites the spirit of commander for any argument just automatically loses in life. That's bullshit reasoning and means nothing.

[Marshstepper78]

Very narrow decks may require tutors, but generally, the player with the most resources - that being cards and lands - is usually the one that has the best chance of winning. I have more than one friend that plays little to no tutors, favouring aggressive card drawing, and they win a decent amount of the time due to sheer amount of resources.

I have decks with the best tutors in their respective colours and barely need to use them so I think it is legit to question the need for tutors.

It's a bit sad that people still feel the need to anonymously say that someone (they don't know and will never play with) ''fails at life'' because they have a different perspective on a game than you.

[Judaspriester]

Card draw is objectively worse.. and anyone who sites the spirit of commander for any argument just automatically loses in life. That's bullshit reasoning and means nothing.

Mhh.. I think this changes with the powerlevel. in cEDH, where you usually want to combo off around turn 4, I totally agree with you. You don't want to draw alot of cards, you just want to draw the right ones.

But at the Kitchen Table, with way less consistent decks and some people that like to play voltron or even aggro, good card draw might be better, because it results in way more ressources overall, even if you can't rely on getting a specific card at a specific moment.

Also the playgroup may influence this, since people have different opinions, what strategies they like to play with/against. This may also influence the effectiveness of tutors and card draw.

[Soren841]

No no Marsh. Anyone who says anything about the "spirit of EDH" as part of their reasoning for anything does automatically lose at life. Known fact smh. It's the most bullshit mean-nothing logic possible in literally the whole universe. And honestly if tutors don't work as well for you then that's probably a deckbuilding issue. When you draw cards you generally want to find a card (otherwise why are you drawing cards?). I would much rather just tutor that card instead of MAYBE drawing it.

[Aetherium Slinky]

No no Marsh. Anyone who says anything about the "spirit of EDH" as part of their reasoning for anything does automatically lose at life. Known fact smh. It's the most bullshit mean-nothing logic possible in literally the whole universe. And honestly if tutors don't work as well for you then that's probably a deckbuilding issue. When you draw cards you generally want to find a card (otherwise why are you drawing cards?). I would much rather just tutor that card instead of MAYBE drawing it.

Competitive EDH is competitive. There's a clear goal and that's winning.

Beyond that I think it's up to each player to determine what the goal is. I like janky combos (that aren't necessarily wincons) and I'm happy when I get to do something that makes the whole table think "ok, now what?". Some people like role playing their deck. Some just like the fact that you can play a lot of big cards that you'd never be able to play in other formats. Spirit of EDH is probably a very subjective reflection of what they deem the most successful game to be. It's a way of saying "I'm having fun doing X and Y, please don't make this unfun for me". On that note - unfun is unfun, no matter how irrational the reason might be.

Now, if a deck has a lot of cards with choices, options, modes and ways to interact they might lean towards drawing more cards because that way they get more answers to, well, everything. This isn't just about the overarching strategy, it's about single cards, too. The difference between playing Naturalize vs. Krosan Grip or Counterspell vs Disallow. Combo decks don't do this. They have a few win conditions and the goal is to get them online as fast as possible. It doesn't make sense for a combo player to play or tutor options that cover a whole lot of niche situations if a cheaper alternative is good enough.

Seems like nobody else is saying it but your point of view is very narrow and your attitude is a little bit entitled. Tone it back, you're not the god of fun who gets to pick what people enjoy and what they don't enjoy.

***

On the topic itself: sometimes when I'm behind the curve, don't know what to tutor for or I'm just plain simple bored I like to tutor lands and/or mana rocks. That's Green Sun's Zenith to find Dryad Arbor, it's Whir of Invention to find Seat of the Synod. Probably not the most clever strategy but then again I didn't have anything else to do, either. You can never have too much mana.

[Soren841]

My whole point is "the spirit of EDH" means literally absolutely nothing. Nowhere in the rules does it say "well tutors aren't banned but don't play them because it's against the 'spirit of the format'" because that's stupid. Everyone who uses that excuse knows it's dumb they just don't have actual reasoning for why using tutors is bad.

[Judaspriester]

My whole point is "the spirit of EDH" means literally absolutely nothing. Nowhere in the rules does it say "well tutors aren't banned but don't play them because it's against the 'spirit of the format'" because that's stupid. Everyone who uses that excuse knows it's dumb they just don't have actual reasoning for why using tutors is bad.

Well.. I don't think this discussion is leading anywhere. I can understand those who agure, that tutors aren't intended to be in the format, since its a wildcard and this somehow counteracts the singleton idea. But on the other hand I can also understand the argumentation, that if they would be really that much against the 'spiritof the format', they would have been banned.

But as we see here, different people have different opinions about what this format is meant to be, and how it should be played. Couldn't we just agree on the fact that there are different opionions and accept them, even if they don't match the own opinion?

[Aetherium Slinky]

My whole point is "the spirit of EDH" means literally absolutely nothing. Nowhere in the rules does it say "well tutors aren't banned but don't play them because it's against the 'spirit of the format'" because that's stupid. Everyone who uses that excuse knows it's dumb they just don't have actual reasoning for why using tutors is bad.

It actually says that in the rules sometimes. Those rules are called house rules. My friend and I don't play Sol Ring unless there's a very good reason to do so, for example. It's our house rule and it definitely lowers the power level.

Building tutorless decks might also mean that you focus more on other aspects of the game play like reacting and interacting. Tutors can do that but more often that not they're played in order to find a really good card that lets you win.

Building tutorless can also reduce swinginess, because you're forced to use a mixture of very good, good and mediocre options. With tutors you only ever need to use very good options. That steadier growth can promote longer, more "epic" games. It's not to say that this is what all people want but it's definitely something some people want.

[Soren841]

House rules don't mean shit. You can't say "spirit if EDH" and refer to rules made by you and NOT by the RC. If you want to site the spirit of the format then obviously you look at the people who made the format unless, like me, you realize there is no "spirit of EDH." RULES means the actual rules.

[Aetherium Slinky]

House rules don't mean shit. You can't say "spirit if EDH" and refer to rules made by you and NOT by the RC. If you want to site the spirit of the format then obviously you look at the people who made the format unless, like me, you realize there is no "spirit of EDH." RULES means the actual rules.

Ok. These passages are from the official Commander rules:

These are the official rules for Commander. Players often play with house rules, and are encouraged to, but this consensus version exists so that players know what to expect if they join a game outside their local play area.

House rules or "fair play" exceptions are always encouraged if they result in more fun for the local community.

Even the official rules encourage the players to play with house rules. What gives?