Messages

16

General Magic / Re: The Walking Dead cards to get in-mtg-universe reprints in Wilds of Eldraine

« on: May 16, 2023, 06:18:52 pm »

I'm glad to see they're finally doing this, but what I find irritating about the Universe Within reprints is that the cards are only in the slot of List cards as opposed to the main set.  At that point, they might as well just be reprinted as a separate Secret Lair, but they won't because Wizards knows that slotting them into the main set will push more product.  There's already only a 1 in 4 chance of getting a List card in a set booster.  Divide that by the number of List cards there are (I still don't understand how these are curated or whether they change for each set) and it's still going to be a pretty rare occurrence to crack one of those.

Frankly, I'm in the camp that doesn't care for IP crossovers.  Don't get me wrong, I love some of the cards themselves, but I don't like the fact that Wizards decided to go outside the universe to make them.  When they were just Secret Lairs, I didn't care so much because it was only a few cards at a time in a special limited product so I didn't see them all that often.  The 40K Commander decks started to push it, but were at least a completely separate opt-in product.  When they started throwing Transformers cards into set boosters of Brothers' War, I think they went too far - and don't even get me started on the entire set for Lord of the Rings.  I won't complain about people playing the cards if they're format legal, but I won't be spending money on them or running them myself (even though my Karona deck would love a Lucille).  I still probably won't buy any "in universe" reprints, because now it's just Wizards double dipping on the exact same product, save the art.  It's almost the Double Feature treatment all over again, except on a much smaller scale with cards that will be far more expensive.

17

Commander Discussion / Re: Is Ramp Too Good?

« on: May 03, 2023, 10:00:21 pm »

I've been lurking this thread since it was first posted and reading every incredibly long reply. Yet still, have have no idea what this discussion is about. I know that it concerns mana ramp, but that's the extent of it.

What's the goal of this discussion? In one or two sentences please.

I have no idea. I think it's just an argument against fast mana, but with all ramp being too fast. I find it a difficult hypothetical to parse, and I feel like the goalposts keep moving.

Sorry, the more precise I try to get with my language, the more long-winded I get.  Also trying to address multiple people in a single post at a time doesn't help.  In so few words, that's essentially what I was trying to get at earlier.  Every time there is an answer provided, it turns out we answered the wrong question, or are challenged on some minutiae in the answer we give.  I'm not trying to be adversarial, and I think the discussion has remained largely civil, but it seems like we're talking in circles here.

I think you could interpret that as what it actually was, not "the format is fast so ramp is not needed" but "the format is fast because fast ramp exists".

As I said, that might be what you intended to convey, but it came across as the latter, not the former.  In the first quote I cited, all you said was that the format was fast already.  You did not mention ramp at all outside of people "deliberately not using the best ramp" to try to slow the game down.  In the second quote, your exact words were that you didn't agree with the premise that the format was slow and needed ramp is to speed it up because with it, games are "very fast" - the implication being that games are already fast and ramp just makes them faster yet.  But again, we're splitting hairs.  Mana go fast is the gist of it.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "needed"; I don't think we need all the ramp that does exist to exist in order for us to have a good format, but that's different to whether you need to play it as an individual player to keep up with all the other people who are playing it.

Are you referring to where I said certain decks didn't need ramp to get ahead early?  Pick any 2-drop commander.  When Rona, Herald of Invasion is out, you can loot to ensure your land drops and hit your combos such that it's not necessary to ramp.  Besides, when you can dump a Sheoldred, Whispering One into the graveyard, reanimate it, then copy it with a Spark Double by turn four and just choke everyone else out of the game, sure, having a turn one Mox might let you do it faster, but it's not absolutely necessary (which I believe is the exact argument you made anyway in the aforementioned second quote - and I agree).  Fast mana increases the chances of the deck spiking sooner, but it doesn't per se provide any additional consistency to the deck.  I'd rather reliably be able to win on turn four than only 20% of the time be able to win on turn three - which is partially why I don't play competitive, because that's almost the exact wrong attitude to take in that format.

To the point about feeling the need to keep up with everyone else, yes, you do need to run it when you're playing more competitive decks, and I see you do that in a not insignificant portion of your decks.  That doesn't necessarily mean it's problematic.  To Valmias's point, competitive meta will always find a way to play as fast as possible regardless of the restrictions imposed upon it because that is the very nature of the format.  If you don't like playing that way, then you either need to have a discussion with your playgroup about the power level of decks that get brought to the table, or (if they don't want to change) find a different playgroup that does not play competitively.  That's not to be crass and say, "Suck it up or leave," but that is the reality of the situation.  I experienced more or less the same thing with the group of friends that initially got me into the game, but I won't expand upon the particulars since they're not entirely relevant.

But in answer to the original question: Is ramp too good? No. What would EDH look like with only weak mana rocks? Currently competitive decks would be slower, and many weaker decks would become fully nonviable... Competitive players would not take the moment to appreciate a slower pace of game, but would push the meta further toward lower-mana strategies, and any commander over 3 cmc would be too slow to seriously consider. The game would contract to a smaller pool of playable cards...

That's effectively what I was saying in the hypothetical situation where ramp were to just disappear altogether.  You'd skew to one extreme or another: faster, cheap-to-cost commanders in competitive or slower, grindy battle cruiser games in more casual settings.  There wouldn't be much in between.

18

General Magic / Re: Rules question: Vehicles becoming creatures without crewing

« on: May 02, 2023, 12:43:26 am »

The Vehicle spell on the stack is never a creature. It will always have its printed characteristics unless there's a global effect that specifically modifies cards that aren't in play.

That I am aware of.

If something with a later time stamp would modify Copter's P/T in layer 7 the object will get that. The only way for the Copter to "regain" its P/T is to remove the continuous effect from the Karn Vanguard (which is impossible because there's nothing that could ever interact with it) because the Crew ability only changes type, doesn't set the power and toughness to anything.

That's why I referenced and was confused about that ruling on March of the Machines that used Chimeric Staff as an example and was questioning how it interacts with rule 301.7b.  What I'm understanding now is that, even though Crew is an animating effect, Crew does not inherently change the P/T since the vehicle was already a creature because of Karn (per the second clause of 301.7b).  Only if the ability on the artifact itself set the P/T like with Chimeric Staff would it change.

Thank you very much for the clarification.

19

Commander Discussion / Re: Is Ramp Too Good?

« on: May 02, 2023, 12:12:03 am »

Besides, this whole confused discussion about Cultivate seems to be a massive distraction. The previous argument seemed to be "ramp isn't too good because Cultivate isn't too good" and I said, OK, but there are plenty of things that are better than Cultivate. Now you seem to be saying,
actually, Cultivate is great. Well OK, doesn't that imply, then, that the things that are better than Cultivate are, like, really good, possibly too good? Or are you saying that Cultivate is actually Magic's best ramp spell?

I made no claims about its power level; I said neither that it was great nor that it was bad, and nobody is claiming that it is the best ramp spell in the game.  What I said was that it is a very popular ramp spell that is situationally impactful, and there must be some merit to running it for as popular as it is or else it wouldn't be that popular.  MustaKotka is originally the one who said Cultivate is too slow.  In general, I might agree with him (similarly to how I think three mana rocks are too slow), but I'd almost rather Cultivate on curve to guarantee I don't miss a future land drop than Rampant Growth on curve and miss my drop the following turn.  When you get down to splitting hairs like that, it's more a matter of personal preference.

I don't really understand the confusion here. Who said the format is fast and so ramp is not needed?

You literally said these exact things.  Maybe you didn't intend to say it, but I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to interpret the following.

For one, EDH has been getting faster and faster, and it's already really fast. Games often end turn 6 or earlier. And yes, if we think of non-cEDH decks this may not be true...

My point is, I don't quite buy the argument that the format is too slow and needs ramp to speed it up if, when we put in all the ramp, we end up with very fast games.

If... ramp is so good to be ubiquitous, is that a problem? My proposition (something to be discussed) is that, actually, EDH would be better without it.

I wouldn't mind slower games myself (fast mana is disgusting and the friends that got me into Magic in the first place played way too much green for me to not cringe every time I see it outside of a four or five-colored deck), but I don't think eliminating ramp altogether would solve the problem.  I think what you'd find with that is either games would last way longer than they need to because battlecruiser Magic now turns into trying to sink the Bismarck, or games speed up even further because people would shy away from the prohibitively expensive commanders (say 5-6 CMC or more) and play far cheaper, faster commanders (say 2-3 CMC max) who don't need to worry too much about ramp to go off and still effectively win by turn 6-8.  I have seen a good number of decks that don't need to ramp at all in order to gain a huge advantage very early.  Doing away with ramp would completely eliminate that middle ground and skew decks to one extreme or the other, leading to even greater power disparities and just some other mechanic that is "too good."

To your point, however, I do agree that ubiquity can be a problem and have to disagree with Valmias to a degree (I will also note that ubiquity is synonymous with popularity, so yes, popularity does factor into the discussion).

Saying it is good is not the same as agreeing that it is ubiquitous, and something being ubiquitous does not make it a problem.

If a card should go in every deck and you actually have to come up with a rationale for not running it as opposed to a justification for running it, then it's probably too good and would serve the format well to be removed.  The disagreement I have is that I don't think that can be generalized in the way that you would like to.  A single card is much different than an entire mechanic, and it's far easier and more practical to eliminate individual problem cards than an entire subset of cards in the game.  Your argument is effectively that ramp is too good because everyone runs it and you are at a disadvantage if you don't.  You can make the exact same argument about card draw, removal spells, or even lands, for that matter.  Do you think we should do away with those as well?  The more you abstract the question, the less meaningful it becomes.

Frankly, I think there's a strong argument that lands are one of the worst things about Magic's design...

That's honestly one of the things I found intriguing about Hearthstone as opposed to Magic: each player is guaranteed to get one additional mana each turn up to the cap of 10 and can plan turns accordingly (of course, there were still "ramp" effects, namely with the player who goes second getting an extra mana to use once at any point and certain cards in the Druid class, and I'm sure there are more now... I stopped playing what must be at least four years ago).  Something like that helps improve game consistency.  I also liked being able to choose to attack creatures directly instead of face (putting more onus of combat decisions on the attacker instead of the defender), but I digress.

20

Commander Discussion / Re: Is Ramp Too Good?

« on: April 30, 2023, 08:55:34 am »

Nobody cares about Cultivate... how much it actually gets played isn't really relevant.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that's blatantly incorrect.  Literally over half a million decks minimum run it, so clearly people do care about it, regardless of whether you think it's good, or even whether it is actually objectively good.  Also, how often something is played is absolutely relevant.  If a card is that ubiquitous, there's a reason for it.  You yourself referenced "auto-include" cards and asked whether running something in a majority of decks per se makes it good:

...but if a card is so good that it beats every other card you could put in that slot, in pretty much every deck, that does kind of suggest that it might be a bit too good, no?

Either the card is in so many decks because it is good, or it's good because it's in so many decks.  Alternatively, it's monetarily a very inexpensive and accessible card that does what people want it to do, so it sees play more often than something that might be objectively better but more expensive and is "good" in that sense.  In any case, it wouldn't be so widely played if it wasn't at least situationally good.

Ultimately, context matters, and I feel like that's being dismissed in this discussion.  For instance, if you're playing a landfall deck and/or haven't played a land per turn and would otherwise miss your drop, then Cultivate is definitely stronger than it would be in just about any other situation and is a good card in that moment.

The longer the thread carries on, the more it seems like you're trying to split the baby here; you seem to be arguing that that ramp is in fact "too strong" - which presumably means that it's necessary to run it - while at the same time saying the format is fast enough as it is so it's not needed and that certain ramp is bad and shouldn't be played even though it's incredibly popular.  Obviously, some cards are better than others, but if a mechanic as a whole is "too strong," you'll be hard-pressed to find a reason to argue against playing it of it outside of deck optimization (why play Explosive Vegetation when Circuitous Route or Migration Path exist unless you are building the deck around those kinds of effects) and monteary cost.

21

General Magic / Re: Rules question: Vehicles becoming creatures without crewing

« on: April 30, 2023, 07:30:05 am »

First: I don't know why you didn't ask in Commander Discussion sub-forum.
Second: Are the Vanguards even legal in EDH?
Third: I just don't think that any of the Legendary cards in Modern make good Commanders. Designer of Wizards, I think, said that. They're just meant for Modern. I have Depala, Pilot Exemplar in a Dwarf-Vehicle deck with Kaladesh-Kaldheim mix, but I don't have ambitions to make her into a Commander. Your choice, but the same goes for Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale. They're just meant for Modern in my opinion and obviously designers' opinion. Good luck.
Fourth: To the topic. I believe this Karn Vanguard emblem makes them creatures with power and toughness equal to their mana value as 2 is the correct one. If you really want to play it. I wouldn't. This is the first time I see it. Why do you wanna play it even? You can use Astor, Bearer of Blades as a Commander instead of Depala. But as said: Modern legendary cards rarely make good Commanders. That's how the game is designed.

1) Becuase it's a rules question, not something specific to commander.  However unlikely, this situation can occur in other formats.
2) No, which is why I specifically mentioned that this is a special set of rules particularly for the commander night at an LGS.
3) That's not relevant to the question, but your opinion is noted.
4) As far as the ruling, I did find out that Karn would make the vehicles' power and toughness equal to their CMC, and then if they are crewed (the "animating effect"), they get their printed power and toughness.

Not understanding why someone would want to do something doesn't per se make that thing any more or less valid than what you would want to do.  Is this whole Karn/Depala thing objectively good?  Absolutely not.  It's just an odd interaction that serves as a creative deck building challenge.  Just because something isn't necessarily good doesn't mean it can't be fun or interesting to build around.  This is literally just a one-off thing for a special event that I thought was funny.  How often do you get to crew your vehicles with other vehicles and hit people with a Sol Ring?

22

Commander Discussion / Re: Is Ramp Too Good?

« on: April 28, 2023, 09:37:40 pm »

This whole thread is a great argument for always using Path to Exile on one of your own creatures. It works best if you stare your opponent in the eyes while you do it, to show dominance.

Give this man a medal.

Better yet, Settle the Wreckage targeting yourself.

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Commander Discussion / Re: Is Ramp Too Good?

« on: April 27, 2023, 06:05:42 pm »

As for whether it's "game-breaking"... well, not much is, really, since the game keeps on functioning.

Islands. Enough said. 

Yes, although, since we were talking about monowhite ramp options: Karoo / Guildless Commons (or Lotus Field types) + Strict Proctor? 

Now that's what I call ramp. 😆

24

Commander Discussion / Re: Is Ramp Too Good?

« on: April 26, 2023, 11:57:04 pm »

You don't run Arcane Signet? Guild signets? Talismans? Mana dorks, Three Visits, Nature's Lore?

I do, but the question was about "overpowered" ramp.  I mentioned Birds of Paradise should be run if it can, and I put Arcane Signet in just about everything.  Neither is overpowered, just good.  Dropping a Mana Crypt on turn 1 can very easily set you far enough ahead that you'll run away with the game.  The same cannot really be said about Birds.

My point is, I don't quite buy the argument that the format is too slow and needs ramp to speed it up if, when we put in all the ramp, we end up with very fast games. Of course, many (most?) people don't play cEDH - but we can't really use that for determining the power level of a card or mechanic (it's a bit like saying "Card X is not overpowered because some people choose not to play it, when deliberately playing weaker-than-optimal decks").

I'm not disagreeing.  It probably is that, on average across all levels of play, EDH has gotten faster than what it has been in the past.  I think ramp probably serves to speed up what would be slower games more than it has any significant impact on already fast games.  It's skewing the lower end of the distribution in terms of game length more towards the median, if you will.  In terms of whether that can be used to determine the power level of a mechanic, you yourself said that what tends to happen if you run ramp and everyone else doesn't is you just win.  If that's the case, then yes, I'd say ramp is a strong mechanic.  I think maybe we're just missing each other on what constitutes "good" or "overpowered."  Ramp isn't game-breaking, but we've established that it gives you a noticeable advantage over your opponents who don't use it.

Well, Jeska's Will is practically an auto-include in most decks with red, so it's super prevalent but, at any rate, I was simply pointing out ramping but missing land drops isn't always purely bad; a ritual effect is a lot narrower and less powerful than pure ramp, but it's still a valuable thing that people often choose to run all by itself.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an auto-include, but it is a very spiky card.  Otherwise we're in agreement here.

I don't think bounce lands work like that...? With bounce lands, you aren't up any mana at all; you have a land that taps for two, but it put you down a land when it entered. Bouncelands are really card advantage rather than ramp.

You're absolutely right.  My "math" was completely off.  You put yourself down one mana the turn you play a bounce land, but you have the same amount of mana you would have otherwise with just basics because the bounce land taps for two.  Guarantees you don't miss a land drop and keep a card in your hand, but that's it.

... unless you are returning something like a fetchland to the field ... unless you're grabbing Sword of the Animist.

Yeah you've pretty much figured it out.

See, I'm not that dumb.    I just don't play with fetches enough to have picked up on it initially.

25

Commander Discussion / Re: Is Ramp Too Good?

« on: April 26, 2023, 12:15:45 am »

I guess I am actually asking two questions here.

Firstly, are some individual ramp cards "overpowered" in that they're basically auto-includes in every deck and objectively the best cards to use in (almost) all situations? There's a pretty strong argument for this, because who doesn't run e.g. Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, etc?

You mentioned them.  As I said, basically any permanent that goes net positive the turn it comes down is probably an auto-include.  Sol Ring, Moxes, and Mana Crypt are the ones that come to mind and that you'll find in just about any competitive deck.  Beyond that, you'd be hard-pressed to find many mono-colored decks that wouldn't run its respective medallion, but nothing else really comes to mind as being "overpowered" in general.

For one, EDH has been getting faster and faster, and it's already really fast...

Also, games that go on for 8 turns aren't necessarily all that longer than games that go on for 6 turns if the first two turns are just "land, pass". It doesn't seem like a brilliant design for a game, having the first three turns always just be "land, pass", but it's also not the biggest deal since it's over in, like, seconds.

Yes, but it depends on the playgroup.  The LGS I go to has commander play open to the public every Saturday night, and the power level of decks that people bring varies quite widely.  Sometimes, a game will end just as you said, but I've been in plenty of games that for one reason or another get drawn out well over an hour and into double-digit turns.  The longer the game is going to be, the better off you'll be if you ramp, I think.

...I think the matter is actually a bit more nuanced. Firstly, missing a land drop after playing a rock is often not really any worse than just having put a land in there, because you often don't have anything impactful to play turn 2 anyway. Secondly, the point of ramp is to be able to do bigger stuff sooner. Land, Land+Signet, miss a land is not great, but Land, Land+Signet, Land, miss a land is way better than playing four lands in a row, because you can cast a four-drop turn three. So long as we have at least one turn where we're ahead on mana, even if we end up behind again afterwards, we've gained something and it might potentially be worth it.

I completely agree, but I think "potentially" is the keyword there.  If being up on mana for potentially only one turn is the goal, then ritual effects should be more prevalent than they are outside of competitive formats or just generally good cards like Jeska's Will.  I think the bigger question is how impactful the ramp will be long-term.  If it means you can get your bomb down two turns earlier, that's probably just as good - if not better - than a 3-drop rock netting you one "extra" mana per turn.  The other thing to look at is how quickly the ramp will pay itself off.  Bounce lands are a good example.  Sure, you're getting down a land that taps for two, but it effectively takes two turns to be worthwhile because you're giving up one mana the turn you play it to gain two the following turn.  Tap a land, return it with a tapped bounce land = 1 mana; next turn play the bounced land = 4 mana.  Land, play another basic = 2 mana; next turn play another basic = 3 mana.  It's 1+4 or 2+3.  You're actually shorting yourself a mana the first turn to have the same total amount over two turns (and only one additional mana beyond what you would have otherwise on the second turn).  Only on the third turn are you actually ahead.  With rocks, dorks, or a Rampant Growth, they still take a turn or two to pay for themselves, but you're at least still casting something and not shorting yourself on the front end.

I'm arguing that ramping is just the better option; if you run it when nobody else does, what actually happens is that you just win. That card advantage trade-off is a thing, but the whole point I'm making is that the balance is way skewed in EDH to the point that it's clearly in favour of ramping, unlike in, say, Standard.

I agree.  That's partially why I prefaced each thing with "might;" generally speaking, if you have more mana than your opponent, you'll stand a better chance of winning.  The trade-off only ends up not in your favor if you ramp too much, which I guess is kind of hard to do in a 100 card format.

Then there's white ramp, which we just don't talk about.  All it does is make sure you are on parity with other players in terms of land count.  You won't get ahead with it, but you won't fall behind either.

This is a total tangent, but I think you're not running the right white land ramp, then. I've played many a game with a monowhite deck where I've easily outramped even the green deck. Try these cards: Cosmic Intervention, Brought Back, Stoneforge Mystic, Open the Armory. Never worry about lands again.

I meant that more as a joke, though it is true that most white "ramp" just focuses on maintaining parity.  I'm not sure how Cosmic Intervention and Brought Back constitute ramp unless you are returning something like a fetchland to the field, which might or might not be the most efficient use of those cards (although it is something I hadn't thought of before, mainly because I don't run fetchlands.  Now that they're relatively affordable, I might have to pick some up and give this a try... Thanks!).  However, Stoneforge Mystic and Open the Armory as a consideration for "ramp" I definitely don't understand, unless you're grabbing Sword of the Animist.  What am I missing?  I don't run mono-white frequently because most of the commanders don't fit my play style, but I run enough white in most of my decks that I'm relatively familiar with its "ramp" options.

26

Commander Deck Reviews / Re: Karonavirus

« on: April 25, 2023, 06:29:32 pm »

To add even more fun, keep in mind that all background cards say Commanders you own not just control. So maybe add in some backgrounds in addition to the other ways of keeping her from killing you and let the sparks really fly.

Also, Moon-Blessed Cleric is another enchantment tutor that can grab your vows, should you need more of that.

It's a great idea; I've seen Karona done with the backgrounds, and it certainly is entertaining.  Unfortunately, many of them either just don't fit with the deck (Clan Crafter, for instance) or can benefit opponents (e.g. Dragon Cultist).  Cultist of the Absolute is great because the sacrifice trigger basically never happens, so it's +3/+3, flying, and deathtouch for only one mana, and Flaming Fist is quite good too.  I had those two in at one point, but just couldn't find room for them in the deck.  Cleric would be OK.  Heliod's Pilgrim also tutors to hand but is limited to only Auras.  Idyllic Tutor also puts any enchantment in had, minus the body.

This is a straight forward enough deck that giving your opponents knowledge shouldn’t be too much of a problem.  I would run Oracle of Mul Daya and maybe augur of autumn or courser of kruphix.  the ability to play lands from the library can be huge.  You are also running enough shock lands that I would look for ramp spells that target forests like nature’s lore, skyshroud claim, three visits, wood elves, etc.

I should probably throw in Three Visits and Nature's Lore, but I don't know what I can afford to cut to make room; the current list is already four cards over.  Best case I swap out something like Spoils of Victory for one of them.  I did also consider Oracle, Augur, and Courser, especially because I'm already running Exploration and Burgeoning, but again I couldn't find a way to fit them in.

Outside of the "super phun thyme": I had several illnesses of COVID-19 with (and without) the vaccine.

Pretty sure I had it myself once not too long ago.  Bad fever and chills for three days, then it turned into a cold for roughly a week.  It certainly was not fun and might have been serious had my fever lasted any longer than it did.

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Commander Deck Reviews / Re: Karonavirus

« on: April 24, 2023, 10:36:48 pm »

I love the theme of locking yourself in your house while your opponents pass around the virus.

Thanks!  I had the idea for the deck long before the pandemic, so I thoroughly enjoy the irony of the deck.

Funny Theme,
 look for Crop Rotation
  and Homeward Path

I'd forgotten about Homeward Path.  That would prevent Karona from coming at me and eliminate some need to enchant her the same turn she comes in.  Probably would have to cut Axgard Armory for it; I used to run more equipment in the deck, but now Assault Suit is the only one, so it's now just four mana and sacking a land to tutor for a single Aura.  Crop Rotation helps with fixing the land types, but doesn't solve the ramp problem since I have to sack a land.  I'd considered it, but it ultimately didn't make the cut.

28

Commander Discussion / Re: Is Ramp Too Good?

« on: April 24, 2023, 09:53:51 pm »

TL;DR: "Fast mana" (i.e. Moxes and Crypt), Sol Ring, Birds of Paradise, and Wild Growth are all "good."  Arcane Signet is generally an auto-include, and cards like Land Tax and Tithe can be incredibly useful.  Beyond that, it's all mostly situational.


To the points already made, it's kind of a prisoner's dilemma: if you don't run ramp but everyone else does, you might fall behind in development.  If you run it but nobody else does, you might find yourself behind in card advantage.  If nobody runs it, the game might take longer.  If everyone runs it, then the only thing that matters is who ramps hardest and/or most efficiently.

The answer really is "it depends," not only on deck construction (if you're a landfall deck or have a 6 CMC commander, then it's definitely good to have) but also on what constitutes ramp and how you define good.  If you're talking mana rocks, then generally I only consider ones of CMC two or less to be "good;" rocks that are 3 CMC or greater are quite situational (3-for-1 is not very efficient, Thran Dynamo is OK for slow decks at 4-for-3, and almost nobody runs Gilded Lotus anymore at 5-for-3).  Even in 3+ color decks, I will typically only run Coalition Relic or Relic of Legends because of the upside.  The Talismans and Signets are more efficient.  Fast mana, like the Moxes and Mana Crypt are objectively good and almost required if you want to play competitively. Sol Ring is as well because it is net one mana by itself, basically a poor man's Crypt.  I'm of the belief that you never have to justify its inclusion, but rather need to find a very good reason not to run it.  I feel like almost every deck should probably also run Arcane Signet.

Mana dorks are typically only a green thing, but do exist in other colors.  The problem with them is that, as creatures, they are far more susceptible to removal than any other form of ramp.  If they don't pay for themselves quickly, you'll end up going net negative.  Birds of Paradise is the premier mana dork.  1-for-1, and it taps for any color.  If you can run Birds in the deck, you should.  Then there are all the elves that tap for one.  Still at 1-for-1, they are very efficient ramp, but don't do a whole lot else unless you're playing elf ball or Raggadragga or something like that.  Worst case, you can use them as chump blockers.  There are more beyond that, but the more costly they are to play, the more situational they become.

Ritual effects, which serve as a one-off ramp, are very situational.  In competitive where speed matters, they tend to be more prevalent and important to get you to the one important thing you need to cast.  The slower or more casual the deck becomes, the less useful they become.  Exceptions are things like Mana Geyser, which tends to be more of a spell that ends games than one that is used for ramp.  Good for competitive or if they enable a big turn, but not super helpful otherwise.

Mana doublers can be considered ramp too.  Prominent in black with things like Crypt Ghast, they're great in mono-black and maybe two-color decks with black, but outside of that you basically have to have an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out for them to be of any value.  There are things like Zendikar Resurgent, Nyxbloom Ancient, and Caged Sun.  The problem with them is that their casting cost is typically so high that they are just "win more" cards; if you already have seven mana to cast a Nyxbloom, you probably don't need to be tripling your mana and could be doing other things to further your board state.  There are also effects like Extraplanar Lens and Gauntlet of Power, but they're kind of niche; both end up potentially benefiting your opponents.  That being said, I have a Maga, Traitor to Mortals deck that runs every single mana doubler and functional copy of Cabal Coffers it can because the point of the deck is to make as much mana as possible and then cast X kill spells.  I even run Doubling Cube.

Then there's white ramp, which we just don't talk about.  All it does is make sure you are on parity with other players in terms of land count.  You won't get ahead with it, but you won't fall behind either.  Notable exception is Smothering Tithe.  Salty card or not, if you're playing white and can run it, you probably should.  Unless it gets removed immediately, it very quickly spirals out of control and puts you so far ahead, even if only for one turn.  I guess it's kind of like a riskier ritual in that sense.

Green has a number of Auras that enchant lands to ramp.  I wouldn't necessarily consider them "good" because they typically aren't the most mana efficient and don't thin your deck as much as a Cultivate, but they can pay for themselves faster if you're able to use them the same turn you cast them, and they can help with color-fixing.  Wild Growth is probably the best one of these.  Another 1-for-1, and if you have a land and at least one other green mana, it pays for itself the turn it comes down.

If you're referring to traditional Rampant Growth type spells or extra land drop effects like Exploration in green, then yes, it is too good.  Top of the Storm-scale, Wizards plz ban.  The playgroup that got me into Magic (one person in particular) likes green a little too much... between a landfall deck and an Azusa deck replete with Eldrazi titans, it goes without saying that I'm biased against it.  I still run it though usually; in two- or three-color decks with green, I almost always run at least Rampant Growth, Three Wishes, Nature's Lore, and Sakura-Tribe Elder, throwing in Cultivate and Kodama's Reach depending on the curve.  The best thing about the latter two are that they also put a land to hand, so you can at least guarantee that you won't miss a land drop for one turn.

I almost never run spells that only put lands into hand.  That's not ramp, just deck thinning and making sure you don't miss drops.  It's paying mana without getting any back in return unless you can play the additional lands.  The only exceptions I can think of are Tithe and Land Tax; if you don't go first, they let you keep a one-land hand because you're guaranteed to not miss your drops for at least the next two or three turns (respectively).  Gift of Estates is also OK, but it's two mana and you can only cast at Sorcery speed.

29

Commander Deck Reviews / Karonavirus

« on: April 24, 2023, 07:13:42 pm »

This deck is something I've toyed around with for a few years (long before the pandemic).  It really took the Impetus cycle and other Goad effects to be viable.  It's effectively a hybrid between pillow fort enchantress and Assault Suit Zurgo Helmsmasher: enchant Karona, make sure she can't attack you, then watch as the other players kill themselves with your commander.

I'm constantly trying to fine-tune it and keep running into the same primary problem: I effectively need nine mana to cast Karona and attach either an Impetus or Vow Aura to her so that I don't immediately die to my own commander, so the deck is incredibly slow.  I've looked at changing the land base to include basics and then running traditional ramp spells like Cultivate, but it really doesn't help speed the deck up all that much.  Second problem is Karona simply getting removed.  Since she gives control of herself to other people, things that give a creature Hexproof do not prevent her current controller from targeting her.  Canopy Cover and Shielding Plax are the only cards of which I'm aware that outright say your opponents can't target the creature, regardless of controller.  Card draw is hit or miss as well: there are only 10(ish) sources in the deck, and several rely on casting enchantments, but a significant portion of the enchantments in the deck are ones that I want to save to cast on Karona.  If I had an Argothian Enchantress or a Rhystic Study, I'd for sure find a way to cram them into the deck.  As it is, they are $40 cards and I do not own either.

Recently, I added a number of the "Enchant land" auras that serve as ramp to help with this - in addition to some other minor tweaks - but now I need to make cuts to get back down to 100 cards.  There are a few on which I'd like a second opinion.  Any other ideas or advice beyond that is welcome.

Prismatic Geoscope - Cons: Five mana for a rock that comes in tapped and can end up doing literally nothing without the right lands.  Pros: Half of my lands have two or more types, I run Prismatic Omen and Dryad of the Ilysian Grove, and I have ways of tutoring for the triple-typed lands.  If this comes down enabled before turn six, it really gives me the gas I need to get Karona going.  Even if it comes down after, being able to tap a single thing for five mana is great if Karona gets killed.
Slimefoot's Survey - Cons: Basically five mana for Explosive Vegetation.  Pros: Tutor up two triomes and you also effectively scry five, plus you guarantee Geoscope and Collective Restraint are fully turned on.
Mazzy, Truesword Paladin - Pros: Serves as a way to give Karona some evasion and also gives some amount of protection to any Auras on her; considering Hall of Heliod's Generosity is the only recursion in the deck, if I can't cast them again and they stay exiled, it's not the end of the world.  Cons: Really doesn't do anything else by herself.
Privileged Position - Pros: Additional protection for my enchantments, which are core to the success of the deck.  Cons: This plus Sterling Grove makes it nearly impossible to interact with your board, which is not fun for anyone else and makes you a bigger target than you already might be.
Sovereigns of Lost Alara and Zur the Enchanter: Pros: serve as ways to cheat out enchantments onto Karona without needing to cast them (potentially saving three mana off the aforementioned nine if they hit the field before her). Zur can also fetch card draw, a little ramp, and some of the pillows.  Cons: I guess if they are both on the field at the same time, one is basically useless.

Holy Avenger, Errantry, and Umezawa's Jitte are currently not in the deck but are all interesting tech cards.  They didn't feel impactful enough, so I removed them.  Cards like Ethereal Armor would be good, but I do not have room in the deck for an effect that is only a straight buff.  Please forgive the massive maybeboard.  I tend to leave unused cards there for potential future reference as opposed to just cutting them outright.

https://deckstats.net/decks/115144/1156982-karonavirus-karona-false-god-e

30

General Magic / Rules question: Vehicles becoming creatures without crewing

« on: April 03, 2023, 09:48:56 pm »

The LGS to which I go to play Commander on Saturdays has a special theme every other week that adds something to the game or changes deck construction rules.  Once a month, the theme is that each player can choose a Vanguard from the original Vanguard sets to play with (some are banned for balance, of course, like Lyna).  This time, I'm building a Depala vehicles deck with Karn as the Vanguard, and I ran into a bit of a conundrum.

The Karn vanguard is effectively an Emblem version of March of the Machines.  He reads, "Each noncreature artifact you control is an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its mana value."  The rule for Vehicle cards in question is 301.7b: "If a Vehicle becomes a creature, it immediately has its printed power and toughness. Other effects, including the effect that makes it a creature, may modify these values or set them to different values."

I see two ways this interaction could work.  Take Smuggler's Copter as an example:
1) As it is cast and before it hits the battlefield, it is a noncreature artifact spell.  When it hits the battlefield, as a check of state-based effects, Karn sees it and makes it an artifact creature with power and toughness 2 (equal to CMC).  Now, since it has become a creature, per the first sentence of 301.7b, it now has its printed power and toughness (3/3).
2) Karn's effect supersedes the printed power and toughness of Copter and makes it 2/2, per the second sentence of 301.7b.

I believe the second scenario is the correct one.  Part 2 of the question: if this is true, can a vehicle "regain" its printed power/toughness if it is crewed?  A ruling on March of Machines from 7/15/07 reads, "If a noncreature artifact becomes an artifact creature this way and then another effect animates it, the new effect overrides March of the Machines’s effect. For example, Chimeric Staff is a 4/4 creature while March of the Machines is on the battlefield. If you activate Chimeric Staff’s ability and choose X = 5, Chimeric Staff will be a 5/5 artifact creature for the rest of the turn."  I understand that crewing the vehicle doesn't change its power and toughness values and that the vehicle in question is already a creature, but crewing it would "animate" it, allowing it to become a creature independent of Karn's effect.  Does that cause it to now gain its printed values, or are they still equal to the card's CMC?

Something like Cyberdrive Awakener or Workshop Elders is very clear, as they would set the base power/toughess of the vehicles as they become creatures.  All the other cards don't seem to be quite as clear-cut (Karn, Silver Golem; Karn's Touch; the +1 ability on Karn, the Great Creator; Sydri, Galvanic Genius; Titania's Song; Toymaker; Xenic Poltergeist; and the Karn vanguard).