Is Ramp Too Good?

[anjinsan]

All (not-terrible) Commander decks run ramp. Lots of it. Mana rocks, Three Visits, Llanowar Elves, whatever.

Now, there's a trade-off to ramping. It usually costs you cards, and it certainly costs you mana up front; it's an investment, that you hope pays off later. This is why Standard decks don't ramp so often: aggro decks exist, so you don't always have time, plus the ramp in Standard these days is worse than all the stuff that's accrued in Commander over the years. But, in Commander, everyone ramps. Even my Umori "oops all planeswalkers" deck ramps (albeit badly).

We still have that trade-off; some decks want to ramp more than others. But does this mean that ramp is, essentially "too good"? Are we wasting card slots on ramp when the game could either not have such good ramp options or just give them to us for free? Does the variability provided by ramp add to the game, by giving us more ways to get unlucky (as if mana screw wasn't enough... but still, serious question).

What would EDH look like if, say, only 3-mana rocks exists (and worse dorks/land ramp/etc)? Wizards are apparently only really printing those for Standard from now on; are they onto something?

[Landale]

I wouldn't say ramp is too good, outside of maybe the highest end decks where you run nearly every 0 mana ramp you can.
You have twice as many players with twice as much health each and decks roughly twice as large. The games are already quite long, no need to make it any longer by hamstringing mana.

[CleanBelwas]

I'm not sure I'd say that ramp is too good as such, but my opinion towards ramp is definitely changing.

Commander is a an interesting format where it concerns ramp. Typically a commander is integral to a deck's strategy so you're going to want to get your commander out as early as possible and ramp is the best way to do this. This rule is fairly applicable to most decks but there are exceptions.

One thing that is noteworthy about ramp is that it's only ramp if you continue to hit your land drops. You're not ahead on mana if you play an arcane signet on two but miss a land drop on three. With that in mind, for some decks I've have started leaning more towards cheap cantrips and draw spells rather than ramp pieces, and so far I've been happy with the results. Many cheap draw spells allow me to hit my land drop pretty much every turn but I've also found myself in situations where I just hit the ramp part of my deck and have loads of mana with no cards and nothing to do with it  on far fewer occasions. The draw spells keep the wheels turning and are far more desirable to draw in the late game than a rampant growth.

This is not something I'd advocate for every deck or in every meta, but I'd certainly recommend giving it a try in decks that are typically slower or where there is more benefit to a commander that enters the battlefield later. For example, my DJ Scarab God deck is happy to wait until the late game to cast my commander, so I'm not concerned with racing him out and find that the draw spells are better for sculpting my game plan.

It all comes down to the trade off that you mention Landale. Sometimes the trade off is worth it, but I'm definitely finding that ramp is probably overvalued compared to card draw on more occasions than I would have first thought.

[UrizenII]

TL;DR: "Fast mana" (i.e. Moxes and Crypt), Sol Ring, Birds of Paradise, and Wild Growth are all "good."  Arcane Signet is generally an auto-include, and cards like Land Tax and Tithe can be incredibly useful.  Beyond that, it's all mostly situational.


To the points already made, it's kind of a prisoner's dilemma: if you don't run ramp but everyone else does, you might fall behind in development.  If you run it but nobody else does, you might find yourself behind in card advantage.  If nobody runs it, the game might take longer.  If everyone runs it, then the only thing that matters is who ramps hardest and/or most efficiently.

The answer really is "it depends," not only on deck construction (if you're a landfall deck or have a 6 CMC commander, then it's definitely good to have) but also on what constitutes ramp and how you define good.  If you're talking mana rocks, then generally I only consider ones of CMC two or less to be "good;" rocks that are 3 CMC or greater are quite situational (3-for-1 is not very efficient, Thran Dynamo is OK for slow decks at 4-for-3, and almost nobody runs Gilded Lotus anymore at 5-for-3).  Even in 3+ color decks, I will typically only run Coalition Relic or Relic of Legends because of the upside.  The Talismans and Signets are more efficient.  Fast mana, like the Moxes and Mana Crypt are objectively good and almost required if you want to play competitively. Sol Ring is as well because it is net one mana by itself, basically a poor man's Crypt.  I'm of the belief that you never have to justify its inclusion, but rather need to find a very good reason not to run it.  I feel like almost every deck should probably also run Arcane Signet.

Mana dorks are typically only a green thing, but do exist in other colors.  The problem with them is that, as creatures, they are far more susceptible to removal than any other form of ramp.  If they don't pay for themselves quickly, you'll end up going net negative.  Birds of Paradise is the premier mana dork.  1-for-1, and it taps for any color.  If you can run Birds in the deck, you should.  Then there are all the elves that tap for one.  Still at 1-for-1, they are very efficient ramp, but don't do a whole lot else unless you're playing elf ball or Raggadragga or something like that.  Worst case, you can use them as chump blockers.  There are more beyond that, but the more costly they are to play, the more situational they become.

Ritual effects, which serve as a one-off ramp, are very situational.  In competitive where speed matters, they tend to be more prevalent and important to get you to the one important thing you need to cast.  The slower or more casual the deck becomes, the less useful they become.  Exceptions are things like Mana Geyser, which tends to be more of a spell that ends games than one that is used for ramp.  Good for competitive or if they enable a big turn, but not super helpful otherwise.

Mana doublers can be considered ramp too.  Prominent in black with things like Crypt Ghast, they're great in mono-black and maybe two-color decks with black, but outside of that you basically have to have an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out for them to be of any value.  There are things like Zendikar Resurgent, Nyxbloom Ancient, and Caged Sun.  The problem with them is that their casting cost is typically so high that they are just "win more" cards; if you already have seven mana to cast a Nyxbloom, you probably don't need to be tripling your mana and could be doing other things to further your board state.  There are also effects like Extraplanar Lens and Gauntlet of Power, but they're kind of niche; both end up potentially benefiting your opponents.  That being said, I have a Maga, Traitor to Mortals deck that runs every single mana doubler and functional copy of Cabal Coffers it can because the point of the deck is to make as much mana as possible and then cast X kill spells.  I even run Doubling Cube.

Then there's white ramp, which we just don't talk about.  All it does is make sure you are on parity with other players in terms of land count.  You won't get ahead with it, but you won't fall behind either.  Notable exception is Smothering Tithe.  Salty card or not, if you're playing white and can run it, you probably should.  Unless it gets removed immediately, it very quickly spirals out of control and puts you so far ahead, even if only for one turn.  I guess it's kind of like a riskier ritual in that sense.

Green has a number of Auras that enchant lands to ramp.  I wouldn't necessarily consider them "good" because they typically aren't the most mana efficient and don't thin your deck as much as a Cultivate, but they can pay for themselves faster if you're able to use them the same turn you cast them, and they can help with color-fixing.  Wild Growth is probably the best one of these.  Another 1-for-1, and if you have a land and at least one other green mana, it pays for itself the turn it comes down.

If you're referring to traditional Rampant Growth type spells or extra land drop effects like Exploration in green, then yes, it is too good.  Top of the Storm-scale, Wizards plz ban.  The playgroup that got me into Magic (one person in particular) likes green a little too much... between a landfall deck and an Azusa deck replete with Eldrazi titans, it goes without saying that I'm biased against it.  I still run it though usually; in two- or three-color decks with green, I almost always run at least Rampant Growth, Three Wishes, Nature's Lore, and Sakura-Tribe Elder, throwing in Cultivate and Kodama's Reach depending on the curve.  The best thing about the latter two are that they also put a land to hand, so you can at least guarantee that you won't miss a land drop for one turn.

I almost never run spells that only put lands into hand.  That's not ramp, just deck thinning and making sure you don't miss drops.  It's paying mana without getting any back in return unless you can play the additional lands.  The only exceptions I can think of are Tithe and Land Tax; if you don't go first, they let you keep a one-land hand because you're guaranteed to not miss your drops for at least the next two or three turns (respectively).  Gift of Estates is also OK, but it's two mana and you can only cast at Sorcery speed.

[anjinsan]

I guess I am actually asking two questions here.

Firstly, are some individual ramp cards "overpowered" in that they're basically auto-includes in every deck and objectively the best cards to use in (almost) all situations? There's a pretty strong argument for this, because who doesn't run e.g. Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, etc?

Secondly, is there are reason why this might actually be a good thing, or at least not a bad thing?

The games are already quite long, no need to make it any longer by hamstringing mana.

Length of games is definitely a potential reason... but I'm not convinced. For one, EDH has been getting faster and faster, and it's already really fast. Games often end turn 6 or earlier. And yes, if we think of non-cEDH decks this may not be true, but if we're thinking of games where people are already deliberately not using the best ramp (or the best ways to make use of that ramp) then we're dodging the original question.

Also, games that go on for 8 turns aren't necessarily all that longer than games that go on for 6 turns if the first two turns are just "land, pass". It doesn't seem like a brilliant design for a game, having the first three turns always just be "land, pass", but it's also not the biggest deal since it's over in, like, seconds. (Actually, the question is how much aggressive early plays would become more favoured if nobody was popping off turns 2-4)

One thing that is noteworthy about ramp is that it's only ramp if you continue to hit your land drops. You're not ahead on mana if you play an arcane signet on two but miss a land drop on three.

This is a very good point, but I think the matter is actually a bit more nuanced. Firstly, missing a land drop after playing a rock is often not really any worse than just having put a land in there, because you often don't have anything impactful to play turn 2 anyway. Secondly, the point of ramp is to be able to do bigger stuff sooner. Land, Land+Signet, miss a land is not great, but Land, Land+Signet, Land, miss a land is way better than playing four lands in a row, because you can cast a four-drop turn three. So long as we have at least one turn where we're ahead on mana, even if we end up behind again afterwards, we've gained something and it might potentially be worth it.

P.S. MDFC lands and Abundant Harvest / Dig Up are great.

To the points already made, it's kind of a prisoner's dilemma: if you don't run ramp but everyone else does, you might fall behind in development.  If you run it but nobody else does, you might find yourself behind in card advantage.  If nobody runs it, the game might take longer.  If everyone runs it, then the only thing that matters is who ramps hardest and/or most efficiently.

This isn't quite true, I think. I'm arguing that ramping is just the better option; if you run it when nobody else does, what actually happens is that you just win. That card advantage trade-off is a thing, but the whole point I'm making is that the balance is way skewed in EDH to the point that it's clearly in favour of ramping, unlike in, say, Standard.

Then there's white ramp, which we just don't talk about.  All it does is make sure you are on parity with other players in terms of land count.  You won't get ahead with it, but you won't fall behind either.

This is a total tangent, but I think you're not running the right white land ramp, then. I've played many a game with a monowhite deck where I've easily outramped even the green deck. Try these cards: Cosmic Intervention, Brought Back, Stoneforge Mystic, Open the Armory. Never worry about lands again.

[UrizenII]

I guess I am actually asking two questions here.

Firstly, are some individual ramp cards "overpowered" in that they're basically auto-includes in every deck and objectively the best cards to use in (almost) all situations? There's a pretty strong argument for this, because who doesn't run e.g. Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, etc?

You mentioned them.  As I said, basically any permanent that goes net positive the turn it comes down is probably an auto-include.  Sol Ring, Moxes, and Mana Crypt are the ones that come to mind and that you'll find in just about any competitive deck.  Beyond that, you'd be hard-pressed to find many mono-colored decks that wouldn't run its respective medallion, but nothing else really comes to mind as being "overpowered" in general.

For one, EDH has been getting faster and faster, and it's already really fast...

Also, games that go on for 8 turns aren't necessarily all that longer than games that go on for 6 turns if the first two turns are just "land, pass". It doesn't seem like a brilliant design for a game, having the first three turns always just be "land, pass", but it's also not the biggest deal since it's over in, like, seconds.

Yes, but it depends on the playgroup.  The LGS I go to has commander play open to the public every Saturday night, and the power level of decks that people bring varies quite widely.  Sometimes, a game will end just as you said, but I've been in plenty of games that for one reason or another get drawn out well over an hour and into double-digit turns.  The longer the game is going to be, the better off you'll be if you ramp, I think.

...I think the matter is actually a bit more nuanced. Firstly, missing a land drop after playing a rock is often not really any worse than just having put a land in there, because you often don't have anything impactful to play turn 2 anyway. Secondly, the point of ramp is to be able to do bigger stuff sooner. Land, Land+Signet, miss a land is not great, but Land, Land+Signet, Land, miss a land is way better than playing four lands in a row, because you can cast a four-drop turn three. So long as we have at least one turn where we're ahead on mana, even if we end up behind again afterwards, we've gained something and it might potentially be worth it.

I completely agree, but I think "potentially" is the keyword there.  If being up on mana for potentially only one turn is the goal, then ritual effects should be more prevalent than they are outside of competitive formats or just generally good cards like Jeska's Will.  I think the bigger question is how impactful the ramp will be long-term.  If it means you can get your bomb down two turns earlier, that's probably just as good - if not better - than a 3-drop rock netting you one "extra" mana per turn.  The other thing to look at is how quickly the ramp will pay itself off.  Bounce lands are a good example.  Sure, you're getting down a land that taps for two, but it effectively takes two turns to be worthwhile because you're giving up one mana the turn you play it to gain two the following turn.  Tap a land, return it with a tapped bounce land = 1 mana; next turn play the bounced land = 4 mana.  Land, play another basic = 2 mana; next turn play another basic = 3 mana.  It's 1+4 or 2+3.  You're actually shorting yourself a mana the first turn to have the same total amount over two turns (and only one additional mana beyond what you would have otherwise on the second turn).  Only on the third turn are you actually ahead.  With rocks, dorks, or a Rampant Growth, they still take a turn or two to pay for themselves, but you're at least still casting something and not shorting yourself on the front end.

I'm arguing that ramping is just the better option; if you run it when nobody else does, what actually happens is that you just win. That card advantage trade-off is a thing, but the whole point I'm making is that the balance is way skewed in EDH to the point that it's clearly in favour of ramping, unlike in, say, Standard.

I agree.  That's partially why I prefaced each thing with "might;" generally speaking, if you have more mana than your opponent, you'll stand a better chance of winning.  The trade-off only ends up not in your favor if you ramp too much, which I guess is kind of hard to do in a 100 card format.

Then there's white ramp, which we just don't talk about.  All it does is make sure you are on parity with other players in terms of land count.  You won't get ahead with it, but you won't fall behind either.

This is a total tangent, but I think you're not running the right white land ramp, then. I've played many a game with a monowhite deck where I've easily outramped even the green deck. Try these cards: Cosmic Intervention, Brought Back, Stoneforge Mystic, Open the Armory. Never worry about lands again.

I meant that more as a joke, though it is true that most white "ramp" just focuses on maintaining parity.  I'm not sure how Cosmic Intervention and Brought Back constitute ramp unless you are returning something like a fetchland to the field, which might or might not be the most efficient use of those cards (although it is something I hadn't thought of before, mainly because I don't run fetchlands.  Now that they're relatively affordable, I might have to pick some up and give this a try... Thanks!).  However, Stoneforge Mystic and Open the Armory as a consideration for "ramp" I definitely don't understand, unless you're grabbing Sword of the Animist.  What am I missing?  I don't run mono-white frequently because most of the commanders don't fit my play style, but I run enough white in most of my decks that I'm relatively familiar with its "ramp" options.

[anjinsan]

Beyond that, you'd be hard-pressed to find many mono-colored decks that wouldn't run its respective medallion, but nothing else really comes to mind as being "overpowered" in general.

You don't run Arcane Signet? Guild signets? Talismans? Mana dorks, Three Visits, Nature's Lore?

Yes, but it depends on the playgroup.  The LGS I go to has commander play open to the public every Saturday night, and the power level of decks that people bring varies quite widely.  Sometimes, a game will end just as you said, but I've been in plenty of games that for one reason or another get drawn out well over an hour and into double-digit turns.  The longer the game is going to be, the better off you'll be if you ramp, I think.

My point is, I don't quite buy the argument that the format is too slow and needs ramp to speed it up if, when we put in all the ramp, we end up with very fast games. Of course, many (most?) people don't play cEDH - but we can't really use that for determining the power level of a card or mechanic (it's a bit like saying "Card X is not overpowered because some people choose not to play it, when deliberately playing weaker-than-optimal decks").

I completely agree, but I think "potentially" is the keyword there.  If being up on mana for potentially only one turn is the goal, then ritual effects should be more prevalent than they are outside of competitive formats or just generally good cards like Jeska's Will.  I think the bigger question is how impactful the ramp will be long-term.

Well, Jeska's Will is practically an auto-include in most decks with red, so it's super prevalent but, at any rate, I was simply pointing out ramping but missing land drops isn't always purely bad; a ritual effect is a lot narrower and less powerful than pure ramp, but it's still a valuable thing that people often choose to run all by itself.

Bounce lands are a good example.  Sure, you're getting down a land that taps for two, but it effectively takes two turns to be worthwhile because you're giving up one mana the turn you play it to gain two the following turn.  Tap a land, return it with a tapped bounce land = 1 mana; next turn play the bounced land = 4 mana.  Land, play another basic = 2 mana; next turn play another basic = 3 mana.  It's 1+4 or 2+3.  You're actually shorting yourself a mana the first turn to have the same total amount over two turns (and only one additional mana beyond what you would have otherwise on the second turn).  Only on the third turn are you actually ahead.

I don't think bounce lands work like that...? With bounce lands, you aren't up any mana at all; you have a land that taps for two, but it put you down a land when it entered. Bouncelands are really card advantage rather than ramp.

... unless you are returning something like a fetchland to the field ... unless you're grabbing Sword of the Animist.

Yeah you've pretty much figured it out.

Brought Back is a bit fiddly to use as pure ramp, but its ceiling (as a ramp spell) is a two-mana instant-speed double-Three Visits, which is way better than anything green has. Sevinne's Reclamation is like a poor man's Cultivate. But both of these have utility outside of being ramp spells - they're a bit less good overall as pure ramp but they do what you really want ramp spells to do (and which most don't) which is turn into card advantage or other utility late-game. Cosmic Intervention is a pretty premium piece of protection but you can actually double-return fetchlands with it (they come back EoT but the effect is, for an instant, still in effect, so you can crack them again and have them come back again). This suite also combos quite nicely with Crucible of Worlds, which lets you replay those lands from your graveyard as your regular drops.

White also has Flagstones of Trokair, which combos with a couple of things - primarily Cleansing Wildfire comes to mind, for which you need red too, but also Lotus Vale type lands (which also work with Brought Back effects and Crucible of Worlds).

White's ability to tutor for equipment better than any other colour offers it Sword of the Animist, Sword of Hearth and Home, Sword of Forge and Frontier, and now Bitterthorn, Nissa's Animus, as well as things that make treasures. This is way slower than most ramp but if it sticks around can net you much more in the long run (plus, things like Sword of Blink and Ramp have other benefits too).

[UrizenII]

You don't run Arcane Signet? Guild signets? Talismans? Mana dorks, Three Visits, Nature's Lore?

I do, but the question was about "overpowered" ramp.  I mentioned Birds of Paradise should be run if it can, and I put Arcane Signet in just about everything.  Neither is overpowered, just good.  Dropping a Mana Crypt on turn 1 can very easily set you far enough ahead that you'll run away with the game.  The same cannot really be said about Birds.

My point is, I don't quite buy the argument that the format is too slow and needs ramp to speed it up if, when we put in all the ramp, we end up with very fast games. Of course, many (most?) people don't play cEDH - but we can't really use that for determining the power level of a card or mechanic (it's a bit like saying "Card X is not overpowered because some people choose not to play it, when deliberately playing weaker-than-optimal decks").

I'm not disagreeing.  It probably is that, on average across all levels of play, EDH has gotten faster than what it has been in the past.  I think ramp probably serves to speed up what would be slower games more than it has any significant impact on already fast games.  It's skewing the lower end of the distribution in terms of game length more towards the median, if you will.  In terms of whether that can be used to determine the power level of a mechanic, you yourself said that what tends to happen if you run ramp and everyone else doesn't is you just win.  If that's the case, then yes, I'd say ramp is a strong mechanic.  I think maybe we're just missing each other on what constitutes "good" or "overpowered."  Ramp isn't game-breaking, but we've established that it gives you a noticeable advantage over your opponents who don't use it.

Well, Jeska's Will is practically an auto-include in most decks with red, so it's super prevalent but, at any rate, I was simply pointing out ramping but missing land drops isn't always purely bad; a ritual effect is a lot narrower and less powerful than pure ramp, but it's still a valuable thing that people often choose to run all by itself.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an auto-include, but it is a very spiky card.  Otherwise we're in agreement here.

I don't think bounce lands work like that...? With bounce lands, you aren't up any mana at all; you have a land that taps for two, but it put you down a land when it entered. Bouncelands are really card advantage rather than ramp.

You're absolutely right.  My "math" was completely off.  You put yourself down one mana the turn you play a bounce land, but you have the same amount of mana you would have otherwise with just basics because the bounce land taps for two.  Guarantees you don't miss a land drop and keep a card in your hand, but that's it.

... unless you are returning something like a fetchland to the field ... unless you're grabbing Sword of the Animist.

Yeah you've pretty much figured it out.

See, I'm not that dumb.    I just don't play with fetches enough to have picked up on it initially.

[anjinsan]

I do, but the question was about "overpowered" ramp.  I mentioned Birds of Paradise should be run if it can, and I put Arcane Signet in just about everything.  Neither is overpowered, just good.  Dropping a Mana Crypt on turn 1 can very easily set you far enough ahead that you'll run away with the game.  The same cannot really be said about Birds.
...
I think maybe we're just missing each other on what constitutes "good" or "overpowered."  Ramp isn't game-breaking, but we've established that it gives you a noticeable advantage over your opponents who don't use it.

"Overpowered" doesn't necessarily mean that a card will let you run away with a game itself. Admittedly, the term is a little difficult in a game where cards are by design not entirely balanced against each other, but if a card is so good that it beats every other card you could put in that slot, in pretty much every deck, that does kind of suggest that it might be a bit too good, no?

As for whether it's "game-breaking"... well, not much is, really, since the game keeps on functioning, but game-warping? Yeah. Ramp is clearly that; you can't not run a decent amount of it and expect to be anything like competitive.

You're absolutely right.  My "math" was completely off.  You put yourself down one mana the turn you play a bounce land, but you have the same amount of mana you would have otherwise with just basics because the bounce land taps for two.  Guarantees you don't miss a land drop and keep a card in your hand, but that's it.

Yes, although, since we were talking about monowhite ramp options: Karoo / Guildless Commons (or Lotus Field types) + Strict Proctor? 

[UrizenII]

As for whether it's "game-breaking"... well, not much is, really, since the game keeps on functioning.

Islands. Enough said. 

Yes, although, since we were talking about monowhite ramp options: Karoo / Guildless Commons (or Lotus Field types) + Strict Proctor? 

Now that's what I call ramp. 😆

[anjinsan]

Now that's what I call ramp. 😆

Hey, that may sound a bit like magical Christmas land, but there are decks that might want to run both anyway (if you're doing "Brought Back" style ramp, you may want Lotus Field, Lotus Vale for that, and the bouncelands are much-needed card-advantage in white - though it's sad that the monocoloured ones are particularly poor). It's certainly funny if you can pull it off. 

[Valmias]

This whole thread is a great argument for always using Path to Exile on one of your own creatures. It works best if you stare your opponent in the eyes while you do it, to show dominance.

[Aetherium Slinky]

Full disclosure and confession: I didn't read the entire thread.

As others have stated low MV ramp is always effective. We're talking up to MV 1, I'd say. Other than that I've seen myself do the opposite in my most casual decks:

• Increase land count, e.g. instead of 35 I run 38 lands.
• Increase low MV draw density to find my lands.
• Hit land drops till turn 6-9.
• Have mana sink-esque extra land drops such as Thawing Glaciers or Terrain Generator that don't take up slots from the deck or serve multiple functions.
• Have mana doublers, e.g. Extraplanar Lens or Caged Sun.

This setup has worked for me in slower games. Since I tend to build slower decks with high card velocity it works out great. Let's remember that ramping on turn 2 with an Arcane Signet and subsequently missing your land drop on turn 3 does not put you ahead anyone in terms of mana. I feel like it's occasionally better to hit the land drops all the way till the end of the game and reserve the free'd up slots for more low to the ground card advantage and selection.

Having a bunch of draw is very beneficial because it lets you do anything your deck wants. You get lands, ramp (in case you still have a decent number) and gas. The numbers for me have shifted from 36 lands + 12 ramp + 10 draw to 38 lands + 3 ramp + 17 draw. (Adjust your deck accordingly.) It feels good to have a steady mana flow from lands and there are no dead draws late game. Arcane Signet is usually just in the way and not very useful on turn 8. Plus some rummaging / looting effects let you get rid of excess lands if you find yourself flooded.

The math works out as follows:

• With an average number of lands (36), lots of ramp (20) but very little draw (5) you get 1 card per turn and see about 20 cards (7 for starting hand + 10 for turn and 3 for one draw spell) during a game. Of those 20 cards about 7 are lands and 4 are ramp spells netting you about 11 mana per turn in late game.
• With a higher number of lands, very little ramp (5) but lots of draw (20) you get 1 card per turn... Plus a little extra. Here's where it gets interesting. I calculated once that Ponder, Preordain, Faithless Looting, Night's Whisper, incidental cantripping spells, etc. on average let you see 1.7 cards in addition to your card per turn. The draw spells start to chain together. Turn 1 you you've seen 8 cards of which 1.6 are draw spells, turn 2 you see 1+1.7 cards so you have 1.6-1+0.2*20~=1 draw spell remaining, turn 3 you see another 1+1.7 cards (0.5 draw spells remaining), turn 4 you see 1 card, turn 5 you see 1 card, turn 6 you see 1+1.7 cards and so forth till you've seen about 7 + 4*1.7 + 10 = 25 cards by the end of the game. Of those cards 10 are lands (i.e. you hit your every land drop statistically!) and 1 ramp spell netting you the same 11 mana at the end of the game. BUT! You've seen 5 extra cards that could be gas or whatever you need in the moment.

By this logic if your game is very relaxed and casual it might even be better to have copious amounts of draw spells instead of ramp spells. I understand that the cumulative mana count is higher in a ramp-y deck but such a deck runs the risk of running out of cards to play which doesn't happen with a draw heavy deck.

[UrizenII]

This whole thread is a great argument for always using Path to Exile on one of your own creatures. It works best if you stare your opponent in the eyes while you do it, to show dominance.

Give this man a medal.

Better yet, Settle the Wreckage targeting yourself.

[anjinsan]

By this logic if your game is very relaxed and casual it might even be better to have copious amounts of draw spells instead of ramp spells. I understand that the cumulative mana count is higher in a ramp-y deck but such a deck runs the risk of running out of cards to play which doesn't happen with a draw heavy deck.

Well, what do you mean by "relaxed and casual"? If you mean, deliberately trying to be slower then, yeah... but is that an argument that ramp is less good, or that ramp is so good that you don't want to use too much of it?

Draw definitely complicates matters, but it's not as simple as ramp vs draw. And, draw doesn't substitute for ramp. It might give you smoother games and hit your land drops, but it doesn't let you play important things early (when they're more impactful). Heck, if you can get a Rhystic Study or, say, Stolen Strategy out one or more turns early, you're quite possibly drawing even more by ramping than you would have otherwise.